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GRISHAM

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There is no need for temples, no need for complicated philosophies. My brain and my heart are my temples; my philosophy is kindness. Dalai Lama
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Blasphemy Laws: For or Against?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:49 PM EST
politics, religion
By Grisham
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Many Christians in North America believe that their religion is under attack - it’s safe to say that many think their religion is disrespected to a degree that they find sickening. In times past, blasphemy laws took care of such talk against religion. Today, in North America at least, blasphemy laws have taken a back seat to freedom of speech.

However, in a recent news story an atheist was attacked by a Muslim man for walking in a parade with a zombie Muhammad. The judge actually sided with the attacker in what I can only describe as a sort of subtle blasphemy law.

It almost sounds like the makings of a joke: an atheist, a Muslim and the Mechanicsburg Halloween parade. But non-believers aren't laughing about an attack and insist what's really frightening is the way a district judge ruled on it.

The Atheists of Central Pennsylvania decided to walk in the Mechanicsburg Halloween parade. There was a zombie Pope and a zombie Muhammed. On YouTube, you can catch a scary moment. It's dark and distorted, but a Muslim man comes off the curb extremely offended at Muhammed being depicted in this way.

"He grabbed me, choked me from the back, and spun me around to try to get my sign off that was wrapped around my neck," said Ernie Perce, who donned the costume.

The Muslim man and Perce both called police to report a crime. Both kept walking, and a few blocks down found Sgt. Brian Curtis. He talked to both and came to this conclusion.

"Mr. Perce has the right to do what he did that evening, and the defendant in this case was wrong in confronting him," he said.

Talaag Elbayomy was charged with harassment, but District Judge Mark Martin threw it out after criticizing Perce, the victim, and even calling him a "doofus." The audio is also on YouTube.

Martin, who has done several tours of duty in the Middle East, said Perce would be put to death in those societies for his crime, but Perce wonders why that's relevant in this country.

"He let a man who is Muslim, because of his preference of his culture and his way of life, walk free from an attack," Perce said.

Now you may agree with the judge when he called the man who was attacked a ‘doofus’ but I think it’s hard to defend this decision and the precedent it seems to subtly give to blasphemy laws. The judge let the attacker go because he felt he was justified in attacking someone after he offended his religious sensibilities.

You may also think there aren’t many people who think blasphemy laws should be instituted, but you’d be wrong there as well. There are a significant amount of people around the world who believe that blasphemy laws should be instituted worldwide to protect religious ideas and what they usually describe as the ‘core ideals’ behind their civilization or society.

You may be yelling ‘bull@!$%#!’ at the screen right now, but even the UN has considered it:

Around the world, free speech is being sacrificed on the altar of religion. Whether defined as hate speech, discrimination or simple blasphemy, governments are declaring unlimited free speech as the enemy of freedom of religion. This growing movement has reached the United Nations, where religiously conservative countries received a boost in their campaign to pass an international blasphemy law. It came from the most unlikely of places: the United States.

While attracting surprisingly little attention, the Obama administration supported the effort of largely Muslim nations in the U.N. Human Rights Council to recognize exceptions to free speech for any "negative racial and religious stereotyping." The exception was made as part of a resolution supporting free speech that passed this month, but it is the exception, not the rule that worries civil libertarians. Though the resolution was passed unanimously, European and developing countries made it clear that they remain at odds on the issue of protecting religions from criticism.

And you may not be aware of this as either a Canadian or American citizen, but laws do exist on the books for blasphemy.

In 2007, there was a blasphemy case in Pennsylvania between George Kalman and the State. He wanted to create a company called “I Choose Hell Productions” and was denied by the State on the grounds that his company name “may not contain words that constitute blasphemy, profane cursing or swearing or that profane the Lord’s name.” It was brought to court and was ruled to be unconstitutional and that it violated the Establishment Clause.

Even so, it shows that blasphemy laws aren’t as farfetched as some would like to believe. I’ve even had commenters here on the Vine say they would back a bill that would see blasphemy charges become a reality. And is it really that hard to imagine someone like Rick Santorum instituting such laws if elected?

Personally, I see blasphemy charges as an affront to human dignity, freedom of thought and freedom of speech. It’s an abhorrent way to silence the free flow of ideas. If someone can’t abide having their faith questioned, then how strong can their faith really be? My mind rebels against blasphemy laws but then again, maybe I’m just biased as an atheist.

What do you think? Should blasphemy laws exist in whatever country you live in? Why or why not?

If your answer is ‘yes’, what kind of punishment do you think a conviction should bring?

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  • Public Discussion (101)
Grisham

As always, thanks for reading. I hope you'll leave a comment and offer your opinion.

  • 11 votes
#1 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:51 PM EST
MoCowgirl-1193719

Should blasphemy laws exist in whatever country you live in?

No, but if they were then it would have to pertain to all religions .... and atheism would have to be ruled a religion. No god could be profaned including the non existent one. All deities would have to be "respected".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deities

what kind of punishment do you think a conviction should bring?

Depends on if a person wants to make it a huge fundraiser via fines, incarcerate the majority of the country's citizens, or eradicate the majority of the country's citizens via the death penalty.

  • 7 votes
#1.1 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:14 AM EST
Tex-988483

I fully support Pro Blasphemy legislation.

  • 9 votes
#1.2 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:58 AM EST
Grisham

I fully support Pro Blasphemy legislation.

Tell us why and what sorts of penalties you would want to see instituted upon a conviction, please.

  • 10 votes
#1.3 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:00 AM EST
Tex-988483

I think that civilians not profane or blasphemous enough should be forced to attend the Westboro Baptist Church for up to but no longer than 6 services per offense. Of course, if you have not the nards to muster any righteous profanity or defamation of anything held sacred I'm not quite sure how one would measure the numbers of offenses. But, that's why we have a corporate plutocracy and fledgling police state.

  • 12 votes
#1.4 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:16 AM EST
Grisham

LMAO. I'm betting most thinking and feeling people would have no problem blaspheming after a dose of Westboro. *shiver*

  • 16 votes
#1.5 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:18 AM EST
Tex-988483

I do believe it would cure what ails em....

Grinderman: Heathen Child

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16GQDM4Siok

  • 7 votes
#1.6 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:20 AM EST
Tex-988483

One more just because I am up rotating a mess of toonage tonight.

Drive By Truckers: Heathens

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cY8x_bafIA

  • 6 votes
#1.7 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:31 AM EST
ryoushi12

The simple truth is NO idea or belief "deserves" respect or even a decent hearing - something that Newsvine and the rightwing just don't seem to get at times. A simple example, how many people here think that flatearthers and their ideas should have ANY time wasted on them, at all? Yet, we live in an artificial world that actually gives "equality" to two sides, simply because most people think this is how ideas should be fought out. It's like the NFL, only worse. In Jefferson's market place of ideas, the competition was NOT gentlemanly, not in his head, not in his ppractice, and certainly not inthe world of politics of that day.

If an idea cannot stand up to pounding and attack, it probably was a bad idea to begin with.

  • 9 votes
#1.8 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:22 AM EST
Mateo-660030

something that Newsvine and the rightwing just don't seem to get at times.

sorry, but you can't just make this a rightwing issue. lots of people on the left have opposed constitutional free expression in incidents like "Everybody Draw Muhammad Day" and Terry Jones' Qur'an burning.

mutually exclusive doctrines, such as believing one religion is true and another is not, or believing they're all false, are going to blasphemy to someone. tolerance or intolerance has little to do with giving equality to both sides, rather freedom of conscience truly occurs only when you give people the freedom to believe something even if you think it's wrong.

  • 6 votes
#1.9 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:21 AM EST
ryoushi12

Not me, quran bashing is just as fair game as bible bashing. The Kamasutra on the other hand is obviously a work of great dignity, although most of the stuff inthe is reserved for fantasies, sigh - I don't bend the way I used to.

On the other hand, I don't support ANY book burning, whether it's the quran, the bible, Das Kapital or Mein Kampf.

  • 8 votes
#1.10 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:50 PM EST
Truth Sleuth

Should blasphemy laws exist in whatever country you live in?

I'll speak only for the country in which I live, the USA:

NO!

I don't yell very often, so 'scuse me for doing so now, but I felt that yelling was warranted.

There should be no restrictions on free speech. (And libel, slander, fighting words and reckless endangerment are not protected free speech.) If some imbecile decides on his own power to react to somebody else's rude (protected) speech, then that's the imbecile's problem, and he and he alone is culpable for any harm that was caused--not the rude speaker! The First Amendment protects all manner of rudeness and disrespect, as it should. Words don't cause harm. Choosing to give in to one's emotional reactions to them and to retaliate with physical action can and frequently do, and there should be no sympathy or leniency in terms of the law. The subtext otherwise is disturbing: It suggests that those of a certain religion are incapable of behaving like civilized members of society. I don't buy that. Behaving in an uncivilized, irrational manner is a personal choice; it is not unique to religion, race or ethnicity.

  • 7 votes
#1.11 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:58 PM EST
Truth Sleuth

...And there is nothing about the Islamic faith that warrants special treatment or leniency. It's no different from any other religion or belief system in terms of the First Amendment. All are fair game when it comes to free speech. All.

  • 10 votes
#1.12 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:04 PM EST
Rank on Rank

Grisham,

The judge actually sided with the attacker in what I can only describe as a sort of subtle blasphemy law.

Actually nothing that I have read suggests that the judge was defending any blasphemy law subtle or otherwise. The judge's completed tours of duty in the Middle East probably included cultural sensitivity training. His decision clearly reflected his insight into Muslim sensibilities.

As an interesting aside, 2 US military personnel were killed today as a blowback from the recent burning of Q'urans in Afghanistan by US personnel. Blasphemy can cost lives. Blasphemy can ruin our reputation abroad. Blasphemy can undo all the work the United States does to encourage societies to be more open and egalitarian especially in Muslim countries with whom we have so much invested.

Personally, I see blasphemy charges as an affront to human dignity, freedom of thought and freedom of speech.

You place what you consider "human dignity, freedom of thought, and freedom of speech" above the very human trait to worship and revere Deity. You have that right, but that doesn't mean it is right to do so, or that most of humanity shares your sense of values. It only shows remarkable lack of understanding of the importance religion plays in the lives of billions of people on this planet. An importance which you seem to dismiss or trivialize.

It’s an abhorrent way to silence the free flow of ideas.

Using racial slurs is an instance of a "free flow of ideas". One that should also be stanched. Or do you consider it as a matter of "human dignity, freedom of speech and thought" to call out the word "nig-ger" in the presence of a room full of African Americans? Is it also an abridgement of your 'freedom of speech' not to be able to shout fire in a crowded theater?

How strong can your concept of 'human dignity' be if it does not respect or appreciate, but chooses to ignore and dismiss, the relevance of religious faith to other people in one's community, or society, or world?

Blasphemous ideas deserve censure and censor. To some, blasphemy is far more abhorrent and offensive than racial insults would be to their person. Who will argue that slander, libel, defamation of character should not be silenced? They are illegal for good reason.

It was shortsighted of the courts in this country not to consider blasphemy just another form, or perhaps the worst form, of hate speech well deserving to be criminalized

If someone can’t abide having their faith questioned, then how strong can their faith really be?

Blasphemy is not a question. It is an insult. A religious insult. A villification of the religion of others. Would not our society be enhanced if we showed tolerance for other people's religion as we do for their gender preferences?

Blasphemy of others' religion is the worst kind of intolerance too frequently practiced by unfeeling and unthinking atheists in our culture masked as freedom of speech.

Blasphemy doesn't question a person's faith, the way calling a someone's wife a 'whore' doesn't question the offended husband's marriage. Because I won't 'abide' having my wife insulted has no bearing on the strength of our marriage. And if a Muslim will not abide having his religion defamed, it speaks to how important his faith is to him.

Rather, it is because a person's religious faith is vibrant, he or she will respond when his religion is attacked with blasphemy.

Blasphemy on the part of unbelievers is nothing more than a deliberate and premeditated attempt to insult, offend, and defame the religion of others.

My mind rebels against blasphemy laws but then again, maybe I’m just biased as an atheist.

Grisham. I submit your mind rebels against blasphemy laws because you are by nature rebellious. A more mature perspective would see how damaging and destructive blasphemy is to civil discourse in a responsible society. A more mature, responsible attitude would acknowledge blasphemy, and all other hate speech, has absolutely no positive or constructive value whatsoever at any time or any place.

    #1.13 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:47 PM EST
    Truth Sleuth

    Blasphemy can cost lives.

    Blasphemy has no consciousness or sentience and is thereby literally incapable of taking lives. Irrational, ignorant reactions to blasphemy by human beings can cost lives. But we don't base laws in this country on "prior restraints"--iow, we will not allow such-and-such expressions or speech to occur here because so-and-so might happen across the globe. No way.

    When we start succumbing to those kinds of fears and intimidations about our basic rights--not unlike what Geo. W. Bush was trying to sell in the Patriot Act regarding other rights--then we've lost to those who prefer for rights to be withheld and for authoritarians to be in charge of what we may and may not do and say. IOW, the end to as free and open and liberal of a society as possible.

    The First Amendment is not designed or intended to protect your feelings, emotions or political or religious sensibilities.

    • 9 votes
    #1.14 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:08 PM EST
    Truth Sleuth

    Or do you consider it as a matter of "human dignity, freedom of speech and thought" to call out the word "nig-ger" in the presence of a room full of African Americans?

    I call it the height of vulgarity, insensitivity and rudeness, all of which is protected speech under the Constitution. Whatever the consequences are for doing so in the workplace is another matter, and if those in charge considered it a fire-able offense, I would agree and would be disappointed if it wasn't.

    Is it also an abridgement of your 'freedom of speech' not to be able to shout fire in a crowded theater?

    No, it is not an abridgement, because shouting fire in a crowded theater that you know is not on fire is not protected speech. And the reason is this: It's a rights infringement of others because it involves public safety. Speech is not protected if it infringes upon the rights of others. Examples of non-protected speech: libel, slander, fighting words and reckless endangerment (and the latter two require intent to cause imminent danger, not just be the impetus for somebody's latent emotional reaction or temper tantrum somewhere else).

    • 5 votes
    #1.15 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:16 PM EST
    thelopes

    Blasphemous ideas deserve censure and censor.

    What *precisely* do you define as blasphemy?

    The history of blasphemy laws in the U.S. include the simple act of denying God or Jesus. Do you hold that definition? Should a Jew should be punished for worshiping as they want but not being a Christian?

    • 6 votes
    #1.16 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:51 PM EST
    Rank on Rank

    Examples of non-protected speech: libel, slander, fighting words and reckless endangerment

    Blasphemy should not enjoy the status of protected speech. Racial slurs can come under the heading of 'fighting words' and to some people, Muslims in particular, so can defaming Islam.

    What *precisely* do you define as blasphemy?

    A form of hate speech which intentionally insults, offends, defames the religion of others.

    Should a Jew should be punished for worshiping as they want but not being a Christian?

    A worshiping Jew cannot be considered an example of the intentional vilification of someone else's religion or Deity.

      #1.17 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:34 PM EST
      Truth Sleuth

      Racial slurs can come under the heading of fighting words...

      In and of themselves, according to the law, they simply do not. Sorry. They're offensive, rude, vulgar, insensitive and disrespectful. None of that on its face constitutes "fighting words," nor should it ever if you value free speech and freedom. Imagine a Sarah Palin-esque government utilizing the precedent you would set if you had the chance. Best not to go there in the first place, because such things have a tendancy and a history of coming back around and being used against you and what you hold dear and sacred in terms of free speech.

      I think it was Oliver Wendall Holmes who said that the antidote to offensive speech is more speech, not less speech, which is what you're advocating.

      • 8 votes
      #1.18 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:38 PM EST
      thelopes

      A form of hate speech which intentionally insults, offends, defames the religion of others.

      So, as the Supreme Court has said atheism is the equivalent of a religion for first amendment purposes - a Christian saying a nonbeliever will go to hell would be offensive, and thus 'blasphemy' - right? Or "There is a God" would be an insult to someone who believes there isn't, correct?

      Also, what would be an example of defamation to a religion?

      A worshiping Jew cannot be considered an example of the intentional vilification of someone else's religion or Deity.

      A Jew intentionally believes Jesus was not the son of God. Christians believe Jesus is God. How is a Jew intentionally believing Jesus as the son of God is an open lie not an insult?

      • 6 votes
      #1.19 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:14 PM EST
      Grisham

      Blasphemy should not enjoy the status of protected speech. Racial slurs can come under the heading of 'fighting words' and to some people, Muslims in particular, so can defaming Islam.

      I knew a guy who had spent some time in jail and the word 'goof' was something that you didn't call someone in the slammer because they were considered fighting words.

      Should that be part of the blasphemy law or should he just suck it up?

      I say suck it up. You don't have the right to assault someone because you're offended.

      A form of hate speech which intentionally insults, offends, defames the religion of others.

      Can you provide some examples? Was the parade float blasphemy, if I said 'God is a sky fairy' would that count? How about if I wrote an article debunking the Bible?

      A worshiping Jew cannot be considered an example of the intentional vilification of someone else's religion or Deity.

      In many countries, worshipping a deity outside the accepted ones can result in death or improisonment. Once blasphemy laws are instituted, they rarely protect minorities. They're usually used to oppress atheists and minority religions, including Christianity in some areas of the world.

      BTW: Thanks for participating Rank. I thought TS and thelopes did a good job with your first post so I'll leave it as is.

      • 8 votes
      #1.20 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:17 PM EST
      Rank on Rank

      In and of themselves, according to the law, they simply do not. Sorry. They're offensive, rude, vulgar, insensitive and disrespectful. None of that on its face constitutes "fighting words,

      Truth Sleuth,

      What do you mean "in and of themselves" or "on its face"?

      In what instances are slurs and insults considered 'fighting words'?

      If they are not, what words are considered to be "fighting words"?

      the antidote to offensive speech is more speech, not less speech, which is what you're advocating.

      No, that is not correct. I'm advocating responsible, constructive, productive, positive speech. If freedom of religion also means freedom from religion, than freedom of speech must also freedom from speech. Particularly negative, destructive speech which is readily and appropriately termed 'verbal abuse' and 'hate speech'.

      Grisham,

      Should that be part of the blasphemy law or should he just suck it up?

      How does that insult or defame someone else's religion? You can't pretend not to know the meaning of blasphemy, and after I have made it so clear in my posts. Even if you disagree that it should be criminalized as it is in much of Europe by the way.

        #1.21 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:27 PM EST
        Grisham

        Damn it I lied. There are thoughts in your first post I have to address.

        Actually nothing that I have read suggests that the judge was defending any blasphemy law subtle or otherwise. The judge's completed tours of duty in the Middle East probably included cultural sensitivity training. His decision clearly reflected his insight into Muslim sensibilities.

        What happens there has no bearing on the laws here. He's paid to uphold the law and allowing someone to be assaulted for blasphemy is a subtle way of upholding a non-existent blasphemy law.

        You place what you consider "human dignity, freedom of thought, and freedom of speech" above the very human trait to worship and revere Deity. You have that right, but that doesn't mean it is right to do so, or that most of humanity shares your sense of values. It only shows remarkable lack of understanding of the importance religion plays in the lives of billions of people on this planet. An importance which you seem to dismiss or trivialize.

        The first part I think is unfair of you. I would not advocate for stopping anyone from revereing a deity or worshipping. I would do the opposite. I also believe it can be questioned openly and isn't and shouldn't be protected from that.

        I certainly do not trivialize their belief either. In many ways, it would be impossible for me to trivialize it because I think it leads to oppression worldwide in many cases. Religion may be many things but trivial isn't one of them.

        Blasphemy is not a question. It is an insult. A religious insult. A villification of the religion of others. Would not our society be enhanced if we showed tolerance for other people's religion as we do for their gender preferences?

        Depends what you mean by tolerant. If you mean just allowing religious people to do whatever the hell they want because it's religion and I should be 'tolerant' of it, then no. If you mean I should try to address the topic tolerantly, then I would agree that would be a good thing.

        Also, as far as tolerance for gender preferences, it's the religious who are trying to kill off homosexuals and/or oppress them. Not just here or in the US but in many places around the world.

        Grisham. I submit your mind rebels against blasphemy laws because you are by nature rebellious. A more mature perspective would see how damaging and destructive blasphemy is to civil discourse in a responsible society. A more mature, responsible attitude would acknowledge blasphemy, and all other hate speech, has absolutely no positive or constructive value whatsoever at any time or any place.

        My mom would probably agree with your rebellious tag. LOL.

        • 9 votes
        #1.22 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:29 PM EST
        Grisham

        How does that insult or defame someone else's religion? You can't pretend not to know the meaning of blasphemy, and after I have made it so clear in my posts. Even if you disagree that it should be criminalized as it is in much of Europe by the way.

        It has nothing to do with religion but it was insulting to him and he viewed it as defaming. Should we create laws that covers any sort of speech that might hurt someone elses tender feelings? Why does religion get more 'respect' and protection than other sorts of hurtful speech?

        And further, what would you want as a punishment for blasphemy? A fine, jail time, beheading?

        • 9 votes
        #1.23 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:48 PM EST
        Truth Sleuth

        What do you mean "in and of themselves" or "on its face"?

        The literal words by themselves without context or setting. Even in the context of intending to insult someone or in a setting like a speech or a demonstration that involves offensive or racist remarks or gestures, they are still not fighting words.

        In what instances are slurs and insults considered 'fighting words'?

        If I'm not mistaken, "fighting words" apply to individuals who actually hear the words firsthand or witness a demonstration firsthand during the act of the demonstration.

        If they are not, what words are considered to be "fighting words"?

        Words spoken directly to persons that incite those persons who are physicially present to fight, to incite a riot or do something similarly illegal or violent. When it comes to "clear and present danger" with an "intent to incite," the Warren Supreme Court ruled in favor of a KKK defendant in Brandenburg v. Ohio in 1969. And I believe that was the last time this kind of thing came up at the Supreme Court.

        Another example: A lot of folks would have loved to have tried to prosecute Terry Jones for his Koran-burning demonstration last year in Florida because several Americans were killed in Afghanistan due to the killers claiming that they killed the Americans in retaliation to Jones' Koran-burning. The salient point is that Jones' demonstration, as distasteful as it was to a lot of people, did not contain any kind of message to the effect of : "Go forth and kill Americans in Afghanistan!" If anything, Jones probably had in his heart: "I hate Muslims and their holy book." In order for his demonstration and words to have been fighting words, the killers would have had to have been present in Florida and his message had to have been, "I hate Americans; now go kill them" and his audience then going out and running amok. That was clearly not the case.

        The true culprits were those who chose, of their own volition and on their own power, to commit a crime and blame that ignorance, violence and lawlessness on an ignorant preacher in Florida who was exercising his First Amendment rights, again as tacky and distasteful as it was to a lot of people.

        The equally distasteful subtext here is that some Muslims are incapable of controlling themselves like other civilized persons when their sensibilities and holy artifacts are defiled, and therefore we have to scale back our rights to accommodate their lack of self-control. And I don't buy that. There's a bigotry of its own associated with that kind of rationale.

        • 5 votes
        #1.24 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:52 PM EST
        Truth Sleuth

        No, that is not correct. I'm advocating responsible, constructive, productive, positive speech.

        I think most of us would advocate that very thing. But if you're advocating codifying it into law, then logic dictates that you are tacitly opposed to free speech. You seem to be saying that you're opposed to irresponsible, unconstructive, unproductive and negative speech. Morally, yes, I agree, but legally? No way. I adamantly and vehemently disagree. Why would you want your own speech curtailed because others might find your speech to be irresponsible, unconstructive, unproductive and negative? After all, all of those things are subjective; there is no all-knowing arbiter of omnipotent wisdom who decides such things, and you seem to be assuming that this arbiter would always rule in a way that pleases you. Not necessarily. Depends upon the politics of whoever's in charge, and you might be on the losing end of the stick. Therefore, it's best not to go there in the first place.

        If freedom of religion also means freedom from religion, than freedom of speech must also freedom from speech.

        It does only in instances where someone's speech infringes upon your constiutionally guaranteed rights. And the Constitution does not guarantee that you won't be offended or insulted. It does guarantee recourse if you've been discriminated against or if you've been physically injured or your property damaged or destroyed as a result of an illegal act caused by fighting words or reckless endangerment.

        Particularly negative, destructive speech which is readily and appropriately termed 'verbal abuse' and 'hate speech'.

        Again, in terms of legality, if it rises to the level of harming you or your property, I would agree. Without that harm, you, like the rest of us, have to suck it up and know that words can't harm you, just insult you and hurt your feelings. Sticks and stones...you know. :)

        • 6 votes
        #1.25 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:05 PM EST
        Rank on Rank

        Grisham,

        What happens there has no bearing on the laws here.

        Anti-Muslim actions by Americans here do have a bearing on what happens there.

        He's paid to uphold the law and allowing someone to be assaulted for blasphemy is a subtle way of upholding a non-existent blasphemy law.

        What blasphemy law? As you say it was "non-existent". Actions have consequences. No US law has the power to mitigate or protect against that.

        Depends what you mean by tolerant. If you mean just allowing religious people to do whatever the hell they want because it's religion and I should be 'tolerant' of it, then no. If you mean I should try to address the topic tolerantly, then I would agree that would be a good thing.

        Strange you arguing against tolerance meaning allowing people "to do whatever the hell they want", when here you are defending the right of atheists "to say whatever the hell they want."

        It has nothing to do with religion but it was insulting to him and he viewed it as defaming.

        If it has nothing to do with religion, it has nothing to do with blasphemy. There are libel, slander and defamation laws in place. To use this as an example of blasphemy, only conflates the issue.

        Should we create laws that covers any sort of speech that might hurt someone elses tender feelings?

        You often sing a different tune, Grisham, when the "tender feelings" involved belong to Atheists.

        Why does religion get more 'respect' and protection than other sorts of hurtful speech?

        You are unfeeling when it comes to religious sensibilities. I get that. But to billions of people on the planet, religion means far more to them than even their lives. These people will give up their lives, or their freedom, to defend their religious faith. Such a volatile issue is wisely treated with respect and diplomacy.

        And further, what would you want as a punishment for blasphemy? A fine, jail time, beheading?

        Whichever punishments act as a sufficient deterrent.

        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Truth Sleuth,

        If I'm not mistaken, "fighting words" apply to individuals who actually hear the words firsthand or witness a demonstration firsthand during the act of the demonstration.

        A better rendering of 'fighting words' would be words which are uttered that tend to create a verbal or physical confrontation. Hence, certain racial slurs and certain insults would tend to provoke such confrontation.

        The equally distasteful subtext here is that some Muslims are incapable of controlling themselves like other civilized persons when their sensibilities and holy artifacts are defiled, and therefore we have to scale back our rights to accommodate their lack of self-control. And I don't buy that. There's a bigotry of its own associated with that kind of rationale.

        Muslims should not have to tolerate their religion being defamed by rude, thoughtless, insensitive Atheist "doofusses".

        I think most of us would advocate that very thing. But if you're advocating codifying it into law, then logic dictates that you are tacitly opposed to free speech.

        Without that harm, you, like the rest of us, have to suck it up and know that words can't harm you, just insult you and hurt your feelings. Sticks and stones...you know. :)

        I'd like to see you tell a group of African Americans to "suck it up" right after calling them the N-word, or a group of Jewish people "kikes". I don't think you reciting "sticks and stones" will be anywhere near enough to pacify their indignation.

        • 3 votes
        #1.26 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:20 PM EST
        Truth Sleuth

        Muslims should not have to tolerate their religion being defamed by rude, thoughtless, insensitive Atheist "doofusses".

        Why not? You're saying they should have the "freedom" to be violent in response to it? Why should they have that freedom, or, at the very least, a free pass for responding inappropriately?

        I'd like to see you tell a group of African Americans to "suck it up" right after calling them the N-word, or a group of Jewish people "kikes". I don't think you reciting "sticks and stones" will be anywhere near enough to pacify their indignation.

        A. I would not say "suck it up." It's rude. It's not necessary to say it. Civilized people don't have to be told. They just do it. Nor would I ever call anyone the N-word.

        B. Being Jewish, I wouldn't use the word "kike." Even if I were not Jewish, I wouldn't use that word.

        C. If someone used that word in my presence, I wouldn't respond with violence or law-breaking. Again, I'm a civilized person, not a savage or a criminal. That's the point I'm making. People, regardless of religion, have a choice as to how they respond to rudeness, disrespect and provocation. You're suggesting that some people are not capable of responding appropriately and have to be given a pass for it and hold their provokers responsible instead. As I've said earlier, I don't agree with that because there's a certain racism and bigotry associated with that belief.

        • 7 votes
        #1.27 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:14 PM EST
        Grisham

        Anti-Muslim actions by Americans here do have a bearing on what happens there.

        Their laws have no bearing on our laws.

        What blasphemy law? As you say it was "non-existent". Actions have consequences. No US law has the power to mitigate or protect against that.

        Being a douche bag doesn't give someone else the right to assault them. If it did, Pat Robertson would always be black and blue.

        You often sing a different tune, Grisham, when the "tender feelings" involved belong to Atheists.

        Wrong. I will verbally challenge those who do that, but I don't advocate for or use violent means to make my point.

        You are unfeeling when it comes to religious sensibilities. I get that. But to billions of people on the planet, religion means far more to them than even their lives. These people will give up their lives, or their freedom, to defend their religious faith. Such a volatile issue is wisely treated with respect and diplomacy.

        I don't think I'm unfeeling when it comes to religious sensibilities. In some cases, I would defend those sensibilities. However, that doesn't excuse violence.

        And I know many people will use violence when it comes to religion - that's why I oppose much of their ideals.

        • 8 votes
        #1.28 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:16 PM EST
        Truth Sleuth

        But to billions of people on the planet, religion means far more to them than even their lives. These people will give up their lives, or their freedom, to defend their religious faith.

        Fine. Go for it. Just leave my First Amendment rights and those of my fellow Americans out of it.

        Such a volatile issue is wisely treated with respect and diplomacy.

        No. The freedom that the First Amendment represents is due respect and diplomacy. Volatility--code for maniacal killings by lawless, ignorant persons in response to offense taken over others' opinions about one's religion--is due no respect whatsoever. None. With all due respect, I believe you have things backwards.

        • 6 votes
        #1.29 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:23 PM EST
        Christian Dumazz

        'I'd like to see you tell a group of African Americans to "suck it up" right after calling them the N-word, or a group of Jewish people "kikes".

        Never would...what you are failing to recognize is that African-Americans and Jews actually exist. Your petulant sky-daddy, well - your work is still ahead of you.

        Get on it!

        • 2 votes
        #1.30 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:38 PM EST
        thelopes

        You can't pretend not to know the meaning of blasphemy, and after I have made it so clear in my posts.

        I'd have to disagree. You compare it to libel and slander - but these are very difficult to justify before a court, with a very specific list of things that must be proven.

        In order to have a blasphemy law, the blasphemy would have to be similarly clearly defined. Instead of doing so, you use vague references to 'insult,' 'disrespect,' and 'offense.' This is why Grisham has had to ask several times if an example would satisfy your idea of 'blasphemy.'

        • 6 votes
        #1.31 - Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:05 AM EST
        Rank on Rank

        "Anti-Muslim actions by Americans here do have a bearing on what happens there." -Rank on Rank

        'NATO has withdrawn all its personnel from Afghan ministries after two senior US officers were shot dead in the interior ministry building in Kabul.'

        Nato said an "individual" had turned his gun on the officers, believed to be a colonel and major, and had not yet been identified or caught.

        'Last year, at least 10 people were killed in Mazar-e Sharif after news reached Afghanistan of an extremist American pastor burning a Koran in faraway Florida.

        US troop have been accused of deliberately burning Korans

        There is quiet fury within the Afghan government towards the Americans at what one official calls their "brainless" behaviour.

        They are making the "same mistakes as the Russians" says Afghan analyst Omar Safi - failing to respect the Muslim religion.

        "No-one should die because of a few books being set on fire," one Afghan official told me on condition of anonymity.

        But "that is no excuse" he said, for American actions.

        Even people still well-disposed towards them cannot believe how they could have allowed this to happen, after more than a decade here and many previous mistakes.'

        -BBC World News

          #1.32 - Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:06 PM EST
          katrix

          A more mature perspective would see how damaging and destructive blasphemy is to civil discourse in a responsible society

          No, a more mature perspective would not take offense by someone challenging their faith, which can't be proven. I don't want to beat up someone who's so ignorant as to think the world is 6000 years old, or who burns a National Geographic which has an article proving otherwise - so why do religious fanatics get so bent out of shape when their books are burned? Sheer ignorance.

          And stupid on our part. If certain people want to cling to tribal stuff, and ignore human rights, we can't force them into reality. It sucks, but we just can't do it.

          • 5 votes
          #1.33 - Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:05 AM EST
          WaltUU

          There is no escaping the maxim that truth is the ultimate defense against accusations regarding what people say or write. Therefore, any blasphemy law must be rooted in the rules of evidence as applied to the religious perspectives themselves. If a Christian says, "There is a God," an Atheist cannot claim that that is blasphemy because the counter-contention is unknowable, and similarly, if an Atheist says, "There is no God," a Christian cannot claim that that is blasphemy because the existence of God is also unknowable. However, if all statements had to be grounded in proven fact, then people wouldn't be able to practice their own religion (much less comment on anyone else's), so that means that the only rational path for a blasphemy law would be that which sanctions provably false statements. Essentially, it would apply the already-existing laws of slander and libel when those statements are made against a religious perspective, not just when they're made against a person.

          I challenge anyone to point to a statement that would qualify as blasphemous, given this criteria.

          Don't get me wrong; there are occasionally such statements. They're generally of the order, "This specific religious leader said or did this specific thing at this specific time," but what is asserted is repudiated by recorded evidence that shows that that didn't actually happen. It happens so infrequently as to be pointless to pursue.

          Calls for laws against blasphemy in the United States seem to be wet-dreams perpetuated by members of the dominant religion seeking excuse to assert dictatorial, oppressive Dominionism. The only way such laws can have impact is not through their legal impact - because they wouldn't have any impact in that domain except in case of institutionalized infliction of injustice - but rather through how the assertion of such laws fosters in the ignorant mob the vacuous sense of entitlement to oppress others, to discriminate and perhaps even assault others (because they're a mob, remember?), presuming impunity based on the promulgation of the law that doesn't actually legitimize their attacks.

          • 5 votes
          #1.34 - Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:36 AM EST
          thelopes

          Hey Rank,

          Any examples of what qualifies as Blasphemy for you? An idea how you'd make it into a real law? Anything besides rhetoric, yet?

          • 4 votes
          #1.35 - Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:17 PM EST
          Reply
          katrix

          Blasphemy laws shouldn't exist in any way, shape or form. They're a major infringement on rights. Yeah, you're a doofus if you get in someone's face like that - but you're legally allowed to do so, and I don't have a right to keep you from insulting something I believe in. That judge should be fired.

          • 13 votes
          Reply#2 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:01 AM EST
          Jonathan-1917156

          I think summary castration should happen for all men that blaspheme their religion. Since I have no religion, well I can't blaspheme anything, however by now, rick 'ass juice' santorum should have lost his nads about 10 million times by now.

          and that Newt character, well well we shouldn't get into him now.

          • 7 votes
          #2.1 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:05 AM EST
          katrix

          That frothy mix of lube and fecal matter - oh, do I like Dan Savage!

          • 2 votes
          #2.2 - Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:07 AM EST
          Reply
          Kavika

          No, they should not exist in any way, shape or form. The judge that made the ruling should be removed from the bench.

          • 12 votes
          Reply#3 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:17 AM EST
          lost in America-3937007

          I guess it depends on what you call blasphemy. I think portraying the Pope and Muhammed as zombies was in poor taste, but I consider all zombies in poor taste. I personally just wish they would enforce noise regulation so that I would not have to listen to the profane music when I am when I stop at a convenience store. And even though I am offended by someone taking my God's name in vain, we can't arrest 80% or more of the adult population.

          • 8 votes
          Reply#4 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:18 AM EST
          MoCowgirl-1193719

          we can't arrest 80% or more of the adult population.

          That is what I was thinking when I posted above.

          • 6 votes
          #4.1 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:35 AM EST
          ryoushi12

          Well, how about Jesus, he's a jewish zombie, and christians trot him out all the time.

          In fact, at least for catholics and orthodox, he's a regular George Romero zombie, considering the whole blood and flesh thing at communion, or his followers are cannibals

          Note, I was raised and educated as a catholic

          • 8 votes
          #4.2 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:23 AM EST
          lost in America-3937007

          From Webster: a : a person held to resemble the so-called walking dead;especially : automaton

          This does not describe Jesus. And I guess you are glad we don't have blasphemy laws in the US.

            #4.3 - Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:30 PM EST
            Reply
            Polka14

            I don't know how anyone can be in favor of laws that restrict our freedom of speech in any way; they would be illegal anyway as all those laws are violations of the Bill of Rights. Because the Muslim man attacked him, I believe the victim would have had the right to shoot the man in the head in self-defense. I can't believe that judge scolded the victim and not the offender. He should be dismissed from his position.

            Our freedom of speech is so important that it should be defended at any cost.

            • 9 votes
            Reply#5 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:21 AM EST
            Grisham

            Because the Muslim man attacked him, I believe the victim would have had the right to shoot the man in the head in self-defense.

            How shocking! Polka, I thought you were a non-violent, vegetarian, animal loving, cuddly online persona? What happened!? LOL

            I don't know how anyone can be in favor of laws that restrict our freedom of speech in any way; they would be illegal anyway as all those laws are violations of the Bill of Rights.

            Agreed. Blasphemy laws are an affront to freedom IMO.

            • 9 votes
            #5.1 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:56 AM EST
            Polka14

            How shocking! Polka, I thought you were a non-violent, vegetarian, animal loving, cuddly online persona? What happened!? LOL

            I am non-violent and vegan too. I do not own any firearms but I believe that others have the right to self-defense. Without that right, People are vulnerable to others with violent intentions that may even involve killing an innocent person by stabbing them. If you want to know more then respond to my article on Amendment II on my column.

            Agreed. Blasphemy laws are an affront to freedom IMO.

            Yes it is. Some may be offended but their offense is no excuse to undermine free speech for any reason. If they do not like it then they are free to ignore it.

            • 8 votes
            #5.2 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:18 AM EST
            Reply
            The Opposition

            Blasphemy laws are a political device; but then again, so is religion.

            • 12 votes
            Reply#6 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:32 AM EST
            Jake-991574

            Jezuz H Krist, I don't "believe" in no Blasphemy laws. In this case the judge was wrong to "blame the victim". His only requirement was to determine if: there is a law against assault and battery and if such acts committed by the perp met said definitions, make a determination and thereby dispense the appropriate justice.

            • 5 votes
            Reply#7 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:18 AM EST
            markpup

            Blasphemy has many degrees. If I walked in front of a Catholic church during Mass and yelled in a megaphone Jesus should be f***ed in the butt, that's obviously blasphemy - and I think at that level should be punishable. And if I sang God's praises probably no one would care - so it's not the disruption it's what's actually being said.

            There is a certain amount of respect we should have for other people's beliefs or lack of them.

              #8 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:29 AM EST
              Grisham

              There is a certain amount of respect we should have for other people's beliefs or lack of them.

              First off, even though I disagree with you on a number of levels, thanks for honestly putting out your opinion. There are two questions I have for you:

              1) Why do you feel that religious beliefs deserve more 'respect' and protection from the law than other beliefs, especially ones that are unproven?

              2) Would you then be in favor of blasphemy lawsd against religious zealots who say that homosexuals are abominations and atheists are without morals or are works of Satan?

              • 6 votes
              #8.1 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:48 AM EST
              markpup

              Seriously - you say if someone else has a belief (or not) different than mine, anything I say no matter how I say it is OK? No matter how intolerant, uncivil, or disruptive?

              I believe either religious or non-religious beliefs deserve respect (question 1). I certainly do not believe religious beliefs are inherently less respectable than nonreligious ones.

              I am I guess fairly classifiable as Deist - some would regard that as atheist and some would not. To be fair, maybe that's why I can be level on both sides of this.

              Question 2 - It's a matter of degree. For instance, these Westboro yahoos I do think what they do warrants arresting them. They're "blasphemous" to me. And doing that wouldn't make one minor dent in my first amendment rights or my rights to protest the government and would overall create a better environment for mutual tolerance. But for me to criticize religious zealots as you describe or - conversely - for someone religious to criticize you for being atheist in a reasonably civil manner? Why not? It's your 1st amendment right.

              If you're actually suggesting you have more inherent right not to respect religious views than those that profess religion to criticize atheists, I would have to respectfully disagree. A secular society such as ours requires tolerance in both directions. And in either case, severely uncivil disruption to me can be fairly classified as "blasphemy".

                #8.2 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:23 AM EST
                Grisham

                Seriously - you say if someone else has a belief (or not) different than mine, anything I say no matter how I say it is OK? No matter how intolerant, uncivil, or disruptive?

                I do unless it falls within the 'hate speech' sphere which is punishable by law. I'm against blasphemy laws.

                I believe either religious or non-religious beliefs deserve respect (question 1). I certainly do not believe religious beliefs are inherently less respectable than nonreligious ones.

                While I normally give such beliefs as much respect as possible, I don't think it should be mandatory to do so on either side.

                If you're actually suggesting you have more inherent right not to respect religious views than those that profess religion to criticize atheists, I would have to respectfully disagree.

                I think both have the same rights. However, if blasphemy laws were put in place, you can bet it wouldn't be to protect the atheist. I don't have any problem with people criticizing atheists. I do it myself from time to time.

                • 5 votes
                #8.3 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:41 AM EST
                magnoliaave

                Well, Grisham, in the same light blasphemy could be considered "hate speech". As a Christian, if someone defames me because I am Christian, then, it is hateful. If someone defames you because you are atheist, then, it is hateful. Freedom of speech should work for all even when hatefully speaking of another race.

                There was a time when good manners and respect for others far outweighed laws.

                  #8.4 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:31 AM EST
                  Polka14

                  I do unless it falls within the 'hate speech' sphere which is punishable by law. I'm against blasphemy laws.

                  Even "hate speech" infringes on the rights of no one and should not be regulated as it infringes on our free speech protected by Amendment I in the Constitution. Some may even say that "blasphemy" is hate speech and try to get it punished by law. We can't allow any kind of undermining of our free speech. It is too important.

                  • 4 votes
                  #8.5 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:26 AM EST
                  markpup

                  I'd consider derailing someone else's belief or lack of where it's hate speech obviously should be punishable by law. But I'd extend that a little more - for example like I pointed out before, the Westboro gang disrupting the soldier's funeral should have been against the law and they should have been arrested. That kind of ultra-disruptive severely uncivil behavior could easily be "blasphemy". I'm not with the ACLU when Nazis march and chant anti-Jewish slogans in a neighborhood with concentration camp survivors I'd arrest them.

                  Of course it's not mandatory to show the other side respect, but in the name of civility I don't do it. In the end it's just good manners (magnoliaave yes that's right).

                  We might be getting hung up on the definition of "blasphemy" which generally denotes distasteful statements about other's religious beliefs, but if we extend that to distasteful statements about anyone's beliefs including atheists, now I'd once again assert that anything in a severely uncivil realm can be against the law. And even if it's not severely uncivil, I'd have special admiration for someone who's civil and shows good manners just because that's the right thing to do.

                  • 2 votes
                  #8.6 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:35 AM EST
                  Polka14

                  Of course it's not mandatory to show the other side respect, but in the name of civility I don't do it. In the end it's just good manners (magnoliaave yes that's right).

                  You can't legislate morality. Punishing people because they offend others isn't right. That is why we have the freedom of speech. It exists to defend unpopular speech. People should simply learn to ignore speech they do not like and not automatically contemplate of ways that it could be silenced by law or by other methods.

                  • 8 votes
                  #8.7 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:47 AM EST
                  markpup

                  I would almost agree with you, but it's a matter of how offensive.

                  Harping again on the example of the Westboro yahoos disrupting a military funeral only because they don't like US policy for gays - I would arrest them for that. It is severely uncivil. I realize the ACLU and others are worried this is a slippery slope to eroding free speech right - but I'm choosing to dissent on that.

                  We went through the 19th century and most of the 20th with laws much tougher than that - and I never remember any time where people's right to say what they think or protest the government were curtailed. I'd even argue with a basically decent, civil discourse our free speech rights are greatly enhanced.

                  • 1 vote
                  #8.8 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:29 PM EST
                  MYOB-1251250

                  Who decides when something is too offensive? That doesn't work.

                    #8.9 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:01 PM EST
                    markpup

                    So we should allow offensive to any extreme degree - because we're incapable of judgement? That really doesn't work.

                    • 1 vote
                    #8.10 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:05 AM EST
                    Polka14

                    So we should allow offensive to any extreme degree - because we're incapable of judgement? That really doesn't work.

                    When speech can be limited based on a person's judgment then you may see many varying standards used to promote various limitations on speech depending on any particular person's petty and selfish reasoning. It isn't the problem of the People if some are upset by the words or expressions of others and are too emotionally fragile to tolerate it.

                    • 3 votes
                    #8.11 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:43 AM EST
                    markpup

                    OK just a couple things that really happened:

                    1. The Westboro gang disrupts a funeral for an American soldier that got killed in Iraq because they don't like US policy toward gays

                    2. A group of white supremacists march in Skokie, IL hurling loud anti-Semitic epithets in a neighborhood known to have concentration camp survivors.

                    You're saying these are perfectly fine expressions of free speech - these days most people agree with you. I'd disagree. At the very core of the 1st Amendment is the right to protest our government and stopping the above types of activities wouldn't make any dent in that - plus it would promote the kind of fundamental civility we all want.

                    Throughout the 19th century and most of the 20th we've had laws that proscribed profanity and the like. We never once lost our 1st Amendment right to protest the government over it.

                    I'd even assert having more civil discourse expands our free speech rights- because everyone can speak and be heard not just shouted over or pummeled with abuse.

                      #8.12 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:28 PM EST
                      Polka14

                      You're saying these are perfectly fine expressions of free speech -

                      The first amendment was not written only to protect the right to protest government. It was written to protect unpopular speech. Like it or not but you have no right to not be offended. If you are offended, it isn't the government's problem. All laws that violate free speech for any reason is a violation of Constitutional law. You can't enforce morality and trying to dictate what people can and can't say is trying to enforce this morality or "civil discourse" as you would call it.

                      • 3 votes
                      #8.13 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:45 PM EST
                      markpup

                      So you'd allow the 2 scenarios I described in 8.12?

                      I think we can take responsibility for having good judgment and create a civil environment that protects our free speech rights.

                        #8.14 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:21 PM EST
                        Truth Sleuth

                        If I walked in front of a Catholic church during Mass and yelled in a megaphone Jesus should be f***ed in the butt, that's obviously blasphemy - and I think at that level should be punishable.

                        It would be punishable, markpup, but not for blasphemy, but, rather, for infringing upon the rights of others--disrupting a planned, organized and scheduled meeting where the audience had an expectation of listening and participating in peace and without harassment. What you're describing is a "heckler's veto," which is not necessarily protected speech. Yelling those words may be blasphemous in many people's view, but it's not illegal. To consider something "blasphemous" and illegal at the same time would require our government to tacitly endorse some kind of "sanctity" of religion, which the First Amendment prohibits.

                        Disrupting others' right to free speech--and the right to listen to it (the listener is just as important as the speaker in free speech)--is not protected speech.

                        There is a certain amount of respect we should have for other people's beliefs or lack of them.

                        In a moral sense, I agree. But it should not be mandated by law. Two different animals.

                        • 5 votes
                        #8.15 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:32 PM EST
                        Polka14

                        So you'd allow the 2 scenarios I described in 8.12?

                        If we have true free speech then we must allow people to say what they want even if it is hateful in nature.

                        I think we can take responsibility for having good judgment and create a civil environment that protects our free speech rights.

                        Free speech and civility are not related concepts as free speech must not need to be civil. People that can't tolerate speech they dislike can isolate themselves in their homes and never leave if they want but if they want to interact with others then they will risk hearing any type of speech they may dislike. Any type of personal responsibility in regards to civility must be a personal decision and it is something that can and should not be forced on others.

                        It would be punishable, markpup, but not for blasphemy, but, rather, for infringing upon the rights of others--disrupting a planned, organized and scheduled meeting where the audience had an expectation of listening and participating in peace and without harassment.

                        I think the only possible way that speech can be limited is in a situation with a person yelling on the private property of others that dislike it. Yelling anything on public property must be protected speech even if others can hear it.

                        • 4 votes
                        #8.16 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:36 PM EST
                        Truth Sleuth

                        you say if someone else has a belief (or not) different than mine, anything I say no matter how I say it is OK? No matter how intolerant, uncivil, or disruptive?

                        No matter how intolerant? Yes. Uncivil? Yes. Disruptive? Not necessarily.

                        About the "Westboro yahoos": I have to admit that's a really tough one for me to accept, even though I do. The First Amendment allows all many of offensive speech, gestures and demonstratins as long as it doesn't infringe upon the rights of others or cause harm to others. My opinion, markpup, for what it's worth is that I do indeed believe that those demonstrations cause tremendous emotional, psychological harm to those within earshot of them. Granted, that's a very tough thing to prove, but suffering the severe emotional anguish and grief of burying a loved one and then having someone heap more pain and suffering onto you seems perhaps a reasonabe thing to at least explore in terms of whether the Westboro demonstrations are crossing a line. Just a thought.

                        • 4 votes
                        #8.17 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:38 PM EST
                        markpup

                        Truth Sleuth I appreciate your thoughtful response. First, I think we got a little hung up collectively on this thread on what "blasphemy" means. If I just go by the narrow definition of saying something disparaging about someone's religious belief, I'd conclude that it is blasphemous if the action is extreme and would be severely uncivil even if it was directed toward a non-religious group. We all agree just something like saying "God-damn" and having the religious Nazi police haul us off to jail is way out of line and there's no danger at all in our society of that happening. This is not something I lose sleep over.

                        And I wouldn't in any way endorse making more stringent laws for anti-religious severe uncivilness than anything else. So there's no separation of church and state issue there.

                        The Westboro gang - no fine line or much thought required for me. I'd arrest the bastards. That was way over the line.

                        Polka14 - yes I realize there's no statute for speech to be civil and all we need is to look around this newsgroup to see abundant examples. I'm willing to put up with pretty heavy incivility to keep free speech. All I'm saying is there is a limit.

                        And I'd add when I have the free speech conversation with someone it takes me usually less than 60 seconds to find something they don't want people to talk about so it comes down to you want free speech for things you think it's OK to say but not for someone else.

                          #8.18 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:24 PM EST
                          Polka14

                          And I'd add when I have the free speech conversation with someone it takes me usually less than 60 seconds to find something they don't want people to talk about so it comes down to you want free speech for things you think it's OK to say but not for someone else.

                          Anyone can dictate what can be said on private property but in public areas, anyone can say what they want and I do not interfere even if I dislike the specific words said. If I desired to limit speech to protect my dislike then I would have used the selfishness to condone oppression.

                          • 3 votes
                          #8.19 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:31 PM EST
                          katrix

                          Truth, regarding the WBC - I'm with you on that. I absolutely hate that I support those @!$%#'s rights to their speech .. but I do. And it's another reason to know there is no intervetionary God, because if there were, and he didn't at least give these @!$%#s some really bad allergies ... oh, that's right, he's too busy saving all those people in Syria and Somalia and Rwanda.

                          • 1 vote
                          #8.20 - Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:14 AM EST
                          Truth Sleuth

                          I'm not with the ACLU when Nazis march and chant anti-Jewish slogans in a neighborhood with concentration camp survivors I'd arrest them...

                          And charge them with what?

                          So we should allow offensive to any extreme degree...

                          Yes, up to the degree that it actually infringes upon someone else's rights. Emotions are not protected however.

                          - because we're incapable of judgement?

                          No, because we're incapable of having even one person among us who is the ultimate arbiter of what is "moral" and/or "civil." Those are subjective things and subject to personal opinion and taste.

                          And to assign some kind of attribute to religion that makes it eligible for certain limits on speech is contrary to the First Amendment, not only because it restricts speech, but also, just as importantly, because it would be in violation of the prohibition that's in place on the government making value judgments about religion. It would be tantamount to "establishing" religion--clearly a First Amendment violation.

                          A secular society such as ours requires tolerance in both directions.

                          Then it is no longer a secular society, but one based on moral value judgments about the importance and "holiness" of religion. And that's what the First Amendment protects against.

                          The only tolerance that's required is not harming others, their reputation or their property and not discriminating against them, and those things do carry legal consequences, as they should. But speech, gestures and demonstrations about religion that don't cause those harms to others: Anything goes. And if your feelings get hurt in the process, use speech of your own to counter it, or demonstrations of your own. Or walk away. But taking legal action or physical action (violence) against the person who insulted you? Forget it and get over it. Leave that to the ignorant, the uncivilized and those who don't care for a secular society.

                          • 7 votes
                          #8.21 - Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:50 PM EST
                          Reply
                          Christian Dumazz

                          Are we all kidding here? It is a victimless crime. If you are an adult, and in the presence of first world technology, you have NO excuse to believe in magic sky daddies and such.

                          The fact that this is even a topic in 2012 makes me throw up a little in my mouth.

                          • 6 votes
                          Reply#9 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:37 AM EST
                          Christian Dumazz

                          *Correction* - makes me throw-up alot...

                          • 4 votes
                          #9.1 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:40 AM EST
                          Grisham

                          The fact that this is even a topic in 2012 makes me throw up a little in my mouth.

                          Agreed. Yet something like 54 countries worldwide have blasphemy laws and some of them can result in execution or life imprisonment. Go figure...

                          • 11 votes
                          #9.2 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:50 AM EST
                          Christian Dumazz

                          It is heartbreaking that we are a species so bent on destroying/censoring/suppressing the one thing that we are good at: intellectual inquiry.

                          We have the gift of reason, and what do we do with it? Invent reasons to destroy it.

                          Thanks for the article - it got my blood up, but not because I think it shouldn't have been reported...it just sucks that we are still talking about this instead of stressing over the escape velocity demanded of planets or moons that we may one day use as bases to explore the cosmos (insert Gingrich moon-base joke here). No, instead, we are caught up in a dialogue concerning the offense imaginary beings may take at our skepticism.

                          You can see more of my rants on...

                          jk

                          • 7 votes
                          #9.3 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:03 AM EST
                          Reply
                          ngp256

                          blasphemy laws should be illegal world wide. There is no reason to punish anyone who uses religious terms, even in derogatory ways. Religious groups, esp islamic, and evangelist, insult, lie, and demean people, and other faiths all the time. People like Santorum spew vile lies about the GLBT community all the time, and no one is throwing him in jail, and the crap he says is actually harmful.

                          • 8 votes
                          Reply#10 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:49 AM EST
                          samenslow

                          "All I said was by Jehovah...." - from Life of Brian.

                          The judge should be removed from the bench. This is the USA. You have a right to be offended. You also have the responsibility to act or respond in a civilized manner. Do not like it. Saudi Arabia and Iran will welcome you.

                          I do not care if you are Christian, Muslim, or Jewish. Get over yourself. In fact, I would suggest you pay some attention to the teachings of your own faith which says God alone judges. It ain't your job.

                          • 8 votes
                          Reply#11 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:15 AM EST
                          Chalk

                          Some of the laws on the books are a violation of the people that they are supposed to protect. It's okay to lie, lie, lie  to get ahead. Steal if you are rich and get away with it. Deny other's what you are entitled to have just because you can. Yet, because "YOU" believe you are so special , that You" are the chosen one, so if someone disagrees with you and the way you treat them because of your belief, that they are guilty of blasphemy.

                          If anyone is gulty of blasphemy it is the religous radicals, not the non-believers.  True believers of God or Jesus, don't thump the bible  at others, while calling people names, dicriminating,  committing many of the commandments, depriving the poor, shooting people, protesting at funerals and then praying at night, and putting their bible down on the night stand while slamming a gun on top of it. That is blasphemy. If they want a law for that, then make it with the above as violations.

                          • 2 votes
                          Reply#12 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:39 AM EST
                          CommisarCain

                          Blasphemy laws like hate speech laws are a bad idea. Any religious statement could be considered blasphemy.

                          • 3 votes
                          Reply#13 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:45 AM EST
                          Luther28

                          In order for a comment or action to be considered blasphemous, one must first believe. It is a simple matter of respect for others and common sense not something to be legislated (unless one lives in Iran, Afghanistan or some other middle aged environment), but that is just my take.

                          • 4 votes
                          Reply#14 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:34 AM EST
                          Future History

                          If the omnipotent, infallible, omnipresent and omniscient God won't defend its honor by itself, then obviously it doesn't matter. Clearly, it doesn't care. This judge set a horrible precedent by allowing some jackass to get away with attacking someone for offending his faith. That dickhead pastor that burned a Koran in Texas better watch his back now. He already got seven UN workers killed with his stupidity, now karma and leniency towards faith crimes may get him.

                          • 9 votes
                          Reply#15 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:37 AM EST
                          Doby

                          I would not be for Blasphemy laws...as I cannot truly support anything that might restrict free speech and free thought. However, I will firmly state that I might go along with a behavior law...freedom of speech should not be misconstrued for the freedom to openly berate and bash others in a lack of intolerant not to mention childish and unclassy rants...which I have often observed on Newsvine and the reason I have sought out the Honor Vine,(seems no different however)! I long for a return to tolerant, lady and gentleman like behaviour, a world where you have the right to be yourself but are expected to conduct yourself (including your speech) in a way that is not offensive to those others you share space with! The web has provided a place where so many hide behind anonymity to try and act their version of tough or cool not being mature enough to see it otherwise!

                          • 2 votes
                          Reply#16 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:22 AM EST
                          Porter Rockwell

                          "In order for a comment or action to be considered blasphemous, one must first believe."

                          Absolutely right. Muslims persecuting non-Muslims, Christians persecuting non-Christians, Zoroastrians persecuting non-Zoroastrians ... that's more of an issue to me personally.

                          As a historical footnote, religions have often been far more tolerant of non-believers than of their own flock. Muslims made them a protected minority, and in Utah, the Mormon Danites were more of a threat to Mormon backsliders than to gentiles. (Did you know that Utah is the only place where a Jew can be referred to as a 'gentile'?)

                          • 3 votes
                          Reply#17 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:41 AM EST
                          Mateo-660030

                          Did you know that Utah is the only place where a Jew can be referred to as a 'gentile'?

                          Blasphemy!

                          • 3 votes
                          #17.1 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:50 AM EST
                          Reply
                          Gumwars

                          Great article Grisham, thanks for taking the time to write it.

                          • 4 votes
                          Reply#18 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:04 PM EST
                          mrsrachelm

                          I'm against blasphemy laws.

                          But don't expect -me- to sacrifice -my- freedom of speech either including praying in public, speaking about religion in public venues, putting up holiday signs/billboards, speaking out against laws that would limit religious expression, etc.

                          • 2 votes
                          Reply#19 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:16 PM EST
                          MoCowgirl-1193719

                          But don't expect -me- to sacrifice -my- freedom of speech either including praying in public, speaking about religion in public venues, putting up holiday signs/billboards, speaking out against laws that would limit religious expression, etc.

                          I agree as long as you agree that I don't have to sacrifice my freedom of speech by having a conversation in public while you are praying, I can speak about the history of all man made religions in public venues, I can put up signs/billboards debunking religious beliefs, and speak against laws that would require me to live my life according to anyone's religious dogma, my children/grandchildren are never required to learn about any religious belief in public schools outside of history/social studies classes, my doctor is not required to treat my medical conditions according to religious dogma, etc.

                          • 6 votes
                          #19.1 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:23 PM EST
                          Reply
                          rational thought-3748544

                          I'm against blasphemy laws per se. I do believe though that much harm can be done by mocking another's beliefs, especially in a public way. I do believe that there's a point at which time blasphemy becomes slander when it becomes ugly, mean, foul, universally known to be untrue and/or agenda directed. When blasphemy reaches this level a lawsuit could be filed in civil court much as slander is to seek monetary and/or a cease and desist order by the court.

                          • 2 votes
                          Reply#20 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:39 PM EST
                          MoCowgirl-1193719

                          It is possible to slander a person, but how does one slander a god that there is no proof even exists?

                          And if it should ever become illegal to slander one god, then shouldn't it be illegal to slander all past, present and future gods?

                          How does a person pray to one god without slandering another god?

                          There is a big difference in disputing a belief system vs slandering a person.

                          • 7 votes
                          #20.1 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:50 PM EST
                          Truth Sleuth

                          Libel or slander doesn't occur until someone has been actionably harmed by a false statement and if malice can be proved. Being insulted doesn't mean being libeled or slandered. Being discriminated against is against the law, but that's not a libel or slander issue.

                          • 5 votes
                          #20.2 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:20 PM EST
                          katrix

                          McCowgirl - I'm suing you for slandering Zeus. And you know Hera was a jealous thing .. so you can either have a toast with me, or face the consequences.

                          • 2 votes
                          #20.3 - Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:17 AM EST
                          MoCowgirl-1193719

                          Katrix,

                          I will happily toast any and all gods of your choosing. I don't have one personally that I am concerned about offending.

                          • 2 votes
                          #20.4 - Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:51 AM EST
                          katrix

                          * toasts McCowgirl *

                          I don't have a god either, but I see no reason why they aren't all equally valid or invalid. If there were a creator, we're all just as special to it. Good parents don't require worship to love their children.

                          Good parents don't require their kids to be the same as they are. Bad parents do those things, and wouldn't a true god be a much better parent than any of us could be as we muddle around, trying to do the right thing by our kids? Parents who torture or kill their kids are monsters, yet I'm supposed to worship a god who thinks that's OK?

                          • 3 votes
                          #20.5 - Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:11 AM EST
                          MoCowgirl-1193719

                          I find that parents love their children no matter what they do. Children on the other hand (at least mine anyway) expect me to be the same way they are.

                          I think this applies to religious minded folks also. Believers are like my children. They expect their God to love and condone the same things that they do ..... as well as to hate and seek to abolish the same things they do.

                          That could explain why there thousands of gods and 10s of thousands of religions and an untold number of sects among them.

                          If there was a god, then I am sure that he/she/it would have told everyone instead of playing hide-and-seek and occasionally choosing to speak to and through some of the most despicable people on Earth.

                          • 1 vote
                          #20.6 - Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:37 AM EST
                          katrix

                          I have to bring up one thing you left out, MoCowgirl. Embarrassment. Heh.

                          • 2 votes
                          #20.7 - Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:09 PM EST
                          Reply
                          pog8

                          I belong to the ACLU and it can be very grey. I think there are big differences when speech goes on to slander or behaviors that incite riots or public disruption. While I abhor the Westboro church posturing, as long as they stay the legally required distance away, I have to support their rights. Of course, I can also be personally offended by government workers wearing crosses as jewelry. The example of burning the Koran is an excellent example where I wish they would use common sense, though my own common sense, of course! I am not sure if that is crossing the line to inciting a riot, but it sure isn't helping the USA or our troops. Very grey areas.

                          I have to disagree with @8.8 saying, "...19th century and most of the 20th ... I never remember any time where people's right to say what they think or protest the government were curtailed." I think McCarthyism and anti-union responses might apply. The example given with the judge, well, somebody would have to pay for any physical damage I received, so I'd probably appeal higher just on principle.

                          • 3 votes
                          Reply#21 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:04 PM EST
                          jedipunk

                          Christians are currently upset with bully laws that protect gays. How would they react if they can't harass or mock muslims, jews, wiccans, pagans, satanists, and atheists?

                          • 4 votes
                          Reply#22 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:33 AM EST
                          magnoliaave

                          And, how would you feel if you couldn't bully Chrisitians?

                            #22.1 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:17 PM EST
                            jedipunk

                            I don't bully Christians nor would I support prohibiting them their beliefs.

                            I wouldn't care what Christians did at all if their beliefs only affected the consenting adults in their congregation. It is when they begin pushing outward and legislating their beliefs that I have issue.

                            • 4 votes
                            #22.2 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:05 PM EST
                            ngp256

                            HAHA bullying xtians, oh that's rich. The group that bullies nearly as much as islamic extremists, are saying they're being bullied. Good one.

                            • 4 votes
                            #22.3 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:04 PM EST
                            Reply
                            Miss_Diagnosed

                            This would kind of end up like racism laws... just because there is a law doesn't stop racism...

                            Blasphemy, like racism, when unintended can only be cured through awareness.

                            Blasphemy, like racism, when intended there is no cure for.

                            The argument reminds me of the manners argument... "having good manners" can be measured as treating someone better... or they can be measured as treating everyone the same...

                            • 1 vote
                            Reply#23 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:33 PM EST
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