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Is Indoctrinating Your Children a Form of Child Abuse?

Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:57 AM EST
religion
By Grisham

Live Poll

Is Indoctrinating Your Children a Form of Child Abuse?

View Results
  • 176538
    Absolutely not!
    34%
  • 176539
    Yes, it's a form of child abuse
    52%
  • 176540
    Undecided
    7%
  • 176541
    Other. I'll explain below
    7%

VoteTotal Votes: 56

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I've run across the titles question several times over the last few years. Every time I tend to disagree with indoctrination being described as child abuse. It could be because I was raised going to church and my mind recoils at the prospect that my parents may have been unwittingly performing a sort of child abuse on me. I will say that if it is child abuse, I didn't mind it very much. I actually looked forward to going to church. Some children find church boring but I always enjoyed the stained glass windows, the smell of oiled wood and the opportunity to question Sunday School teachers on the doctrine they were attempting to get me to believe. I also enjoyed spending time with my family (especially my dear Nan) who would accompany us to church on Sundays and spoil me with Life Saver candy.

But that's a whole other story.

The most famous charge that indoctrinating your children with your religious beliefs is child abuse is in The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. Most arguments for religious indoctrination being a form of child abuse go something like this:

1) Children are mentally predisposed to believing what their parents tell them. It generally works in their favor. If they went around questioning everything their parents told them, they probably wouldn't last very long, especially in the wild. This makes children more susceptible to religious indoctrination. Convincing a child that a particular religious idea is true is much easier to do when they're still children than it would be a full grown adult who had never been indoctrinated in the first place.

2) Some religions teach that some medical procedures aren't allowed by their religion. This can lead to children being denied medical treatment and ultimately death. Even if they don't suffer a significant illness in their childhood, there is no guarantee that their indoctrination will not lead them to deny themselves lifesaving medical procedures as adults.

3) Some religions teach that horrible torment awaits those who do not believe in their religion. They also teach that if they do believe, they will be rewarded in some way. This sort of teaching works in two ways - by preying on a parents natural inclination to protect their child from eternal torment and by instilling fear in the child.

4) Indoctrination is a form of brainwashing.

5) That indoctrination hampers a child's critical thinking skills and places faith based thinking over evidence based thinking.

6) That indoctrination usually leads to children growing into adults who will in turn, indoctrinate their children in the same way they were.

7) Indoctrination can lead to biased views, such as anti-homosexuality, which is backed up by their doctrine to reinforce such beliefs.

Now, I'm not saying I agree with any of those points. I'm just stating what some people claim when they make the case that indoctrinating children is a form of child abuse.

Here's an example of a page that tries to describe a few of these points:

The recognized forms of child abuse by the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) include slavery, human trafficking, debt bondage, serfdom, forced labor, armed conflict, prostitution, pornography, illicit activities (drugs, genital mutilation of girls).  However, these ignore Article 14 Charter of Right of Children which concerns the right of the child to freedom of thought, conscience and religion.

Whether religious indoctrination should be considered a form a child abuse is obviously a controversial topic, but children are involuntarily involved in religious practice from the time they are born.  This includes daily rituals, preaching, religious readings all of which are unquestioningly forced upon the developing and impressionable minds of children.  Children are often placed in schools which further indoctrinate the religious views of the church of the parents.  Many are also taught not to question – especially not to question authority figures and this has played in a role in the Catholic Church’s many sexual abuse scandals.

The one question I would have for the owners of this site (New Atheist Movement) is would they consider indoctrinating their children to be atheists child abuse? I know there is not any necessary doctrine involved with being an atheist, but for all intents and purposes, if you teach your child to dislike theists and that all religion is dangerous (for arguments sakes) then you are passing on your specific beliefs on the matter. Who is to say that your child might have been happier believing in some higher power or that they might have been more productive as human beings because of their chosen belief structure if they hadn't been told by their parents that atheism is the only way to go?

Furthermore, if religious indoctrination is deemed child abuse now or in the future, how could it possibly be handled? When we as a society suspect and prove that a child is being abused, we usually take them away or step in to ensure the child's safety.

Granted, I've yet to read an atheist site that advocated for taking children from parents who indoctrinated their children in religious beliefs, but you have to admit, that this sort of idea leaves the door wide open for that to happen.

The reason why I started thinking this over tonight is because of a recent Canadian news story. In Quebec, they have decided to teach a mandatory comparative religion class. You would think that religious parents would be happy but the opposite seems to be the case. Here's what the story reported one religious parent saying:

The mother of the Grade 4 pupil said on Friday that the mixed messages of the Quebec program and have caused her son to question his faith at an age where he should be listening to parental instruction.

 “There is a time and place for everything, and this exposure should come later. Unless, of course, the entire point of the exercise is to sow doubt,” said the woman, who can be identified only as S.L. under a court order. “I want to assure you, I’m for openness, but I refuse to treat my faith as something freakish. Just how far do we have to go to call ourselves welcoming and tolerant?”

It sounds to me like she's saying she needs more time to indoctrinate her son. What is wrong with her son asking poignant questions and using his critical thinking skills to explore the truth behind the claims?

And this is the crux of the matter in my opinion. Personally, I don't view religious indoctrination as child abuse. I think that's going too far. If a parent teaches their son or daughter to be racist, we don't step in and take the child away, even if we consider it bad parenting. And no I'm not saying racism is comparable to religious ideas. What I am saying, is that we don't have to agree with everything a parent teaches their children, but we have to respect their right to raise their children.

In my honest opinion, the ideal situation would be if parents allowed their children to make up their own minds. Parents can furnish their children with material to read and discuss with them the different belief structures, including their own. The child (or adult) can then use their critical thinking skills to come to their own conclusions.

I'm certainly not the best parent in the world, but even though I'm not a fan of theistic, dogmatic religions, I try to allow my son to make up his own mind on the matter without allowing (as much as possible) my thoughts to infect his own.

It turns out he does believe in a higher power and that's okay by me. I'll love him no matter what he chooses and if that belief comforts him and makes him happy, then I'll stand aside and allow him to think and believe what he wants.

I also think we need to be extra careful when throwing around the term 'child abuse'.

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Grisham

So what do you think?

Personally, I don't think it's child abuse. Feel free to leave your own thoughts on the matter, whether they agree or disagree with my own. Don't forget to take the poll and please stick to the CoH. Thank you in advance for reading my rambl-y thoughts on the subject as I struggled to form some sort of coherent and fair article on the matter. I tried to present both views for your consideration.

  • 9 votes
#1 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:01 AM EST
mrsrachelm

I don't think it's child abuse either.

Parents generally teach their children those spiritual values (or lack thereof)they believe are important etc. Very few parents will take kindly to someone else coming along and trying to re-do or un-do their parental authority on the issue. This is true of parents who follow a spiritual system as well as parents who do not.

I've seen many atheists on the vine, for example, who get extremely upset at the idea of Bibles being distributed at a school or what have you. They will state it's about the Constitution but really it's about usurping their parental authority in those areas. Frankly, I agree with them that no one has the right to usurp their authority. That's also true of those parents who teach their children a spiritual belief system as well. If my, or anyone's support for parental authority in this area (or lack of support) does not cut both ways then it's hypocritical and biased.

Children grow up and when they hit their mid to late teens and on they begin asking more questions and discovering their own path. Teaching them one's own value system untilt hen isn't going to stunt their growth, lol.

  • 9 votes
#1.1 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:42 AM EST
Hecate's Daughter

Coming from a Wiccan POV I would also agree that it is not child abuse. We teach our children to look for the Goddess/God in whatever way the Creator chooses to present Itself, including other religions. We also explain (in my Coven, at least) that some people are atheists; that is the result of evolution, and has nothing to do with whether or not a person is good or bad. People should never be ashamed of the conclusions they have drawn about the Creator, regardless of whether they see the Creator as Jesus, Hecate, Allah, or don't see a Creator at all. Ultimately, what one believes about the Creator should be whatever makes sense to that person, so long as nobody else is harmed.
If one of my boys said he was atheist, I'd have no problem with it. It just doesn't matter in the whole scheme of things; we have no "hell" or anything. Life is for living, learning, and most of all, loving others. So long as my kid is doing that, I'm happy. And I would have loved if my kids had had the opportunity to take a comparative religion class when they were in high school! As it was, I had to buy college textbooks and spend hours teaching them myself!

Special note to mrsrachelm ((((hugs))))
:) HD

  • 7 votes
#1.2 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:25 AM EST
Silvaria

I dislike teaching children to fear the idea of hell. My ex-husband was raised as a Christian, and said he spent many hours lying in bed at night, both scared of hell and stressing because people he knew who weren't Christian would be going there. It caused him a lot of anguish...that's not something that should be inflicted on a child.

  • 7 votes
#1.3 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:38 AM EST
WaltUU

A lot of this comes down to fundamental principles. However, that only makes things more contentious rather than less contentious. For example, I find a lot of people assert the primacy of their own perspective as "fundamental principles". That is an assertion wholly without merit, repudiated easily as a useful metric by society by the logical implications of the Golden Rule (acknowledged as an axiom of society) which requires that if Person A's perspective has primacy, then Person B's perspective must have primacy. If the two perspectives conflict then the original assertion (that Person A's perspective has primacy) is proven literally absurd.

We're still left working out what are the fundamental principles of society, given that no person's perspective can legitimately have primacy. The only calculus that works is drawing boundaries such that no one person's perspective affects someone else's own person against their will. The boundaries don't intersect - instead they just meet in the middle, in each case where they come close to each other. (And of course, what is the "middle" is debatable, itself.) Every other proposed arrangement draws the system back to the absurd conclusion alluded to above.

That still doesn't resolve the issue as it pertains to children. It comes down to whether or not children are their own people (and therefore we would need to consider the matter of how to determine the will of someone years before they're able to develop it and express it), or are children extensions of their parents. Even that is a false dichotomy, because it is possible to design a system where children are their own people in some situations and an extension of their parents in other situations.

Society has drawn the line such that children are treated as their own people for anything that results in durable damage to the child, physically or emotionally. For any non-durable effect, children are treated as extensions of their parents. So to assert that something is actionable abuse, it is necessary to show that it has durable effect. It is well-established that verbal abuse can do so. Dogmatic religious indoctrination is not substantively different.

There is one more level at work here: Just because something is actionable abuse doesn't mean that society necessarily act morally and act against that abuse. That is where the United States has decided to come down on this issue, for now. Parents are given immunity to indoctrinate their children into whatever religious beliefs they see fit (with certain exceptions), regardless of the durable damage that specific indoctrination inflicts on the child. This neatly avoids the problem I highlighted earlier, i.e., how to determine the will of someone years before they're able to develop it and express it.

About halfway through this message I deliberately allowed something to drop off the radar, specifically the durable damage that specific indoctrination of children may have on society-at-large. Separately from the damage that such indoctrination may inflict on the children themselves, there is still standing for society to protect itself from such indoctrination, because that indoctrination has negative impact over the boundary I described earlier. However, the end-result is the same. The United States grants immunity to parents to indoctrinate their children into whatever religious beliefs they see fit (with certain exceptions), regardless of the durable damage that indoctrination may indirectly inflict on society.

  • 7 votes
#1.4 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:45 AM EST
ryoushi12

If it is, then it is a universal form of child abuse and is practiced humans and other primates.

Of course, the other word that is the synonym for indoctrination is socialization, an inherited trait of most primates as social animals. EVERY human indoctrinates, or socializes, their offspring to become members of human social groupings. Ours is just more intricate than most of our primate cousins, because the thing we are teaching, our culture, is more intricate than most of our cousins' cultures. And yes, quite a few primates have discernable "cultures", behaviors UNIQUELY adapted to solve problems or perform tasks or modifying their environment that MUST BE TAUGHT AND LEARNED from generation to generation, and that are NOT inherent within the range of basic genetic behaviors.

  • 5 votes
#1.5 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:50 AM EST
WaltUU

Yes yes, of course, but the issue here - and the general reason why the word "indoctrination" would be used instead of the word "socialization" - is the implication that what is being done has negative effect. Plain-old "socialization" includes the things you've outlined ("... adapted to solve problems or perform tasks ...") that are clearly positive things, not negative things, which is what others in this thread are talking about.

  • 5 votes
#1.6 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:52 AM EST
Shuklack

I think it depends. Indoctrination to an extent can be a good thing, afterall - we are constantly being indoctrinated into the society in which we live.

But there are those who do abuse it, and in doing so they manipulate and twist their child into someone who can't adjust to the real world and are so mis/underinformed that they can hardly function.

For instance, a coworker of mine was heavily indoctrinated by her parents and home-schooled. She is so sheltered that one could swear she came out from under a rock somewhere. Here's just a short list:

She never heard of Star Wars. She didn't know who Elmo was. She never heard of Indiana Jones. She thought that WWI and WWII were both against Hitler. She thought Sabretooth Tigers and Woolly Mammoth were fictional. She thought Hindu and Muslim were the same. She never heard of Stephen King, Dickens, Poe, or pretty much any book other than the Bible or Christian literature. She thought that the Civil War was a fight for Religious Freedom and State's Rights. She didn't believe that an infection could be life threatening. She didn't know who Bill Gates was. She didn't know what caused the tides, why the sky was blue, what caused rainbows... attributed them all to God... and still thinks them 'unanswerable miracles' even though I have explained the science to her. She gets extremely nervous in groups. Oh, and is always behind in her work. Obviously, it need not be said that she's a Young Earth Creationist that thinks dinosaur fossils are "random rock formations."

Just a small list, she amazes me daily with her wrongness and ignorance. She's a sweetheart, but one of the most misinformed/uninformed people I have ever met and downright stupid at her age because of it.

In her case, I would like to see her parents locked up for child abuse for the full fledged indoctrination they put her through.

  • 4 votes
#1.7 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:22 AM EST
Territan

Shuklack: Indoctrination to an extent can be a good thing, afterall - we are constantly being indoctrinated into the society in which we live.

Actually, no. We're dealing with words here that have very specific meanings.

In•doc•tri•nate, v., to teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.

It's a process that starts with a specific message, with the intent of making some person or group believe that message without considering anything wrong with it. It may have positive uses (e.g. "don't steal"), but more often than not anyone that has to resort to this sort of procedure has ulterior motives, and likely does not have the best interests of others in mind.

Yes, we are constantly receiving information on how to interact with the society in which we live, but that goes by another name: socialization. That process does allow for critical thinking, as some societal traits are more or less acceptable than others.

  • 4 votes
#1.8 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:37 AM EST
Shuklack

Territan, did you manage to get past the first paragraph in my post?

You say the same thing I do:

It may have positive uses (e.g. "don't steal"), but more often than not anyone that has to resort to this sort of procedure has ulterior motives, and likely does not have the best interests of others in mind.

vs

. Indoctrination to an extent can be a good thing, afterall - we are constantly being indoctrinated into the society in which we live. **[like don't steal]**

But there are those who do abuse it, and in doing so they manipulate and twist their child into someone who can't adjust to the real world and are so mis/underinformed that they can hardly function.

  • 3 votes
#1.9 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:46 AM EST
Territan

I apologize for giving that impression; I had no need to comment on the rest of your comment as we are largely in agreement.

My sole point was about the use of the word "indoctrination" to refer to the relatively normal process of getting "up-to-speed" with living in a society.

Indoctrination and socialization are, in fact, not mutually exclusive. One can be fully versed in dealing with people, know a lot of cultural references, and even possibly quite charismatic. Except that there will be this one ...sticking point, an attitude that said person simply can't be reasoned out of because it's an article of faith. These people can be more unpleasant, because you run face-first into the sticking point and can't budge it with any amount of arguing.

In other words, there are cases much more subtle than that co-worker of yours, much less broken in the socialization department, but still fully indoctrinated on some point and insufferable as a result.

  • 4 votes
#1.10 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:39 AM EST
Ripley8

I think it is child abuse in a way.

It would be better if children were either taught multiply forms of mythical beliefs or allowed to grow up and decide for themselves .

Pushing your belief on a susceptible mind is in alot of ways taking away the right to choose. One can state that the child can as they get older change their minds , but this doesn't happen often and when one does ? It's a hard road to travel.

Indoctrination , brain washing really , is hard to over come.

Indoctrination into a belief ensures a religious beliefs survival. One must question the fear that belief would have and unraveling if people were allowed to grow up without such and left to make their own decisions.

  • 5 votes
#1.11 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:01 AM EST
Ripley8

agreed Territan !

Indoctrination and socialization are, in fact, not mutually exclusive.

  • 4 votes
#1.12 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:02 AM EST
PonGoad

Is it child abuse? I do not believe it is. Parents need whatever edge they can get to raise their children in today's world. Children must have a starting point somewhere in order for them to learn and develop whether it is religion, atheism, etc. The problem lies in how, we as parents, handle the learning process with our children when they ask questions.

True Story: When I thought it was time for my older son to start dressing himself and I knew that he could, I purchased a book where the story in it was showing how 'Grover' was learning to dress himself much like this book-video of Elmo teaching 'potty training.' We talked together about how Grover was a big boy and was putting on his socks, pants, shirts, etc.; practiced doing it (mainly for my knowledge to make sure he could completely put his clothes on without my help) and then asked him "why doesn't he try to be a big boy like 'Grover' and try to dress himself. At first he still wanted me to dress him, but I continued to say to him that he was my big boy without any reference to Grover whatsoever. I spent approximately one week in the world of Grover, my son, and dressing himself. By the end of the week, my son was proud to be a big boy like Grover and to show me how well he could put his clothes on by himself. I never had to dress my son again, he did it by himself.

Many years down the road, my son brought this up laughing about it and told me how impressed he was with this and how embarrassed he is that I was able to get him to dress himself this way. He was a big fan of "Grover". Even though I really wanted this responsibility taken off of my shoulders, I did not dump my own stuff on him or yell and scream at him to force him to dress himself. I used positive reinforcement and left the decision up to him as to whether or not he was going to dress himself by himself. If he was not ready at that time, I would have continued to dress him with his 'helping me' with his socks, etc., until such time as he was ready to take on the responsibility by himself.

My point in telling this story is this:

I used a tool that was available to me that my son was interested in to encourage him to dress himself. In an indirect way, I gave him facts that he could associate with at his very young age. Same thing with what seems to be indoctrination. OK, have a starting point, but when your child is starting to ask questions about the religion he-she is being raised in, do not shut the door against other beliefs. Give them as many facts as you from all aspects and beliefs or non-beliefs that they are able to understand. Be open and willing to discuss all avenues with your children and also be willing to take a step back, if necessary. This then allows your children to make their own informed decisions as to what they want to believe and is not being forced onto them which more than likely will cause them to completely run away from your own beliefs to avoid disappointing you as a parent.

Pon

  • 2 votes
#1.13 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:50 AM EST
Drakkonis

The question of is it child abuse to indoctrinate children in matters of faith is a red herring in the first place, to my mind. The only one's who would ask such a question are the ones who don't believe in religion in the first place. The quesion begins with the unstated premise on the part of the questioner that religion is false and harmful. Simply by asking the question one is stating that in their opinion indoctrinating children is nothing less than brainwashing children without the ability to reason into something their parents want them to believe.

The question cannot reasonably be answered without first answering the question of what is the reality of existence? Is it as the Atheist says and just some cosmic chance occurence or is it created by God with an express purpose? If it is the latter, how could it possibly be child abuse?

  • 2 votes
#1.14 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:26 PM EST
WaltUU

The only one's who would ask such a question are the ones who don't believe in religion in the first place.

That's ridiculous. False, and offensively self-serving.

The quesion begins with the unstated premise on the part of the questioner that religion is false and harmful.

This statement exhibits a logical fallacy, insinuating that a person must believe that all religion is one way or the other, instead of the reality, that people can discern between the relative truth and benefit/harm of specific religious perspectives, and even between different instances of holding specific religious perspectives.

Simply by asking the question one is stating that in their opinion indoctrinating children is nothing less than brainwashing children without the ability to reason into something their parents want them to believe.

Actually, by asking the question one is asking the question whether indoctrinating children is brainwashing children or not.

  • 5 votes
#1.15 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:53 AM EST
Drakkonis

The only one's who would ask such a question are the ones who don't believe in religion in the first place.

That's ridiculous. False, and offensively self-serving.

Not very useful to state unless you explain why.

The quesion begins with the unstated premise on the part of the questioner that religion is false and harmful.

This statement exhibits a logical fallacy, insinuating that a person must believe that all religion is one way or the other, instead of the reality, that people can discern between the relative truth and benefit/harm of specific religious perspectives, and even between different instances of holding specific religious perspectives.

Not really. The question was pretty generally stated so I answered generally. Since I am speaking generally, it should be recognized that there will be some variations where what I said would not be true, however, generally it would be.

Simply by asking the question one is stating that in their opinion indoctrinating children is nothing less than brainwashing children without the ability to reason into something their parents want them to believe.

Actually, by asking the question one is asking the question whether indoctrinating children is brainwashing children or not.

What is your point here? That the questioner doesn't have an opinion about it either way? Hardly. I was addressing motive for asking. To ask the question in the first place, concerning religion, one almost certainly has the opinion that it is brainwashing or leans in that direction.

  • 3 votes
#1.16 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:59 AM EST
WaltUU

Not very useful to state unless you explain why.

In other words, just as useful as the sentence it was in response to.

Why do you think you have the right to make statements without explaining why but other people don't?

Not really. The question was pretty generally stated so I answered generally.

I'm not responding to the question; I'm responding to your answer.

Since I am speaking generally, it should be recognized that there will be some variations where what I said would not be true, however, generally it would be.

Which itself is a specific statement. Your categorical assessment actually is not "generally" true. It is perhaps occasionally true, but generally untrue.

Again, my saying so is as well-supported as the statement you made, which I was replying to.

What is your point here?

That your attempt to project a prejudicial assessment of the motivations of the person posing the question is vacuous and without merit.

  • 3 votes
#1.17 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:09 AM EST
Drakkonis

That your attempt to project a prejudicial assessment of the motivations of the person posing the question is vacuous and without merit.

Ah. Then whom do you suppose would pose such a question, then?

  • 2 votes
#1.18 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:06 PM EST
WaltUU

If it was just a "question" then I wouldn't have said anything. It wasn't a question - it was a statement questioning someone else's motivations.

  • 3 votes
#1.19 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:35 PM EST
PonGoad

Drakkonis

The question cannot reasonably be answered without first answering the question of what is the reality of existence? Is it as the Atheist says and just some cosmic chance occurence or is it created by God with an express purpose?

If it came down to something everyday people would have to decide on, there is no way we would consider these types of questions when making a decision as to whether or not indoctrination is child abuse. Those questions sound like they are coming from someone who is a minister or someone who is a student of religion.

Everyday people would make the decision based on why they do what they do, not so much on anything so philosophical, but on their own personal experiences.

Pon

  • 3 votes
#1.20 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:23 PM EST
Drakkonis

WaltUU

You are making no sense. Scroll all the way up and you'll see the question.

Is Indoctrinating Your Children a Form of Child Abuse?

I copied it for you right here. Sorry about the large print. Just copied that way. Now, tell me. Is that really a question or is it a " statement questioning someone else's motivations," as you put it?

And tell me this. What's so wrong in questioning someone elses motivation when that someone else wants to stick their nose into someone elses parenting? Darn skippy I'm gonna!

  • 3 votes
#1.21 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:32 PM EST
PonGoad

I think we are talking about two different things here.

I agree with you that for the question to be raised initially of "whether or not indoctrination is a form of child abuse" does come from ones who don't believe in any type of higher being in the first place.  I am not talking about the writer of this article per se, I am talking about whoever brought it up that caused people to be in an uproar about. The writer is presenting views that were given along with his own. 

Just because I might start thinking about the question does not mean I do not believe in a higher being.  If you read my comment below (#9.1), you will see that I do not have a complete anti-G-d view.  Because this question has come up, I have started to think about what I thought  which I do not think is a bad thing.  What I came up with after thinking about the question is my answer (#1.13).

______________________

The point of my response to you (#1.20) is with regards to your statement of answering the question of

what is the reality of existence?

What parent is ever going to ask themselves that question when deciding whether child abuse is a form of indoctrination?  It would never cross my mind.

  • 2 votes
#1.22 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:01 PM EST
PonGoad

Sorry Drakkonis

I thought you were talking to me which is why I gave my response (#1.22) in answer to your comment of (#1.21)

Pon

  • 2 votes
#1.23 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:08 PM EST
Drakkonis

It's ok, PonGoad, we're cool.

  • 2 votes
#1.24 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:14 PM EST
cried

I am personally shocked that the majority (52% at this time) consider it child abuse. Any kind of learning is a form of indoctrination. Maybe they consider indoctrination as "learning what I don't approve of".

I apologize if anyone was offended by that statement, but that's the way I see it.

  • 7 votes
#1.25 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:39 AM EST
clatz

Any kind of learning is a form of indoctrination.

That is simply not true. Many forms of learning require the student to think critically. In fact that's really one of the aims of the education system ... get kids thinking for themselves, to question everything they know, and ask them to justify their positions.

Here is a great video on indoctrination: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-HdluMuoO0

  • 4 votes
#1.26 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:14 AM EST
cried

If you say so, clatz

Indoctrination: 1. To instruct in a body of doctrine or principles.

  • 2 votes
#1.27 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:43 AM EST
Grisham

I copied it for you right here. Sorry about the large print. Just copied that way. Now, tell me. Is that really a question or is it a " statement questioning someone else's motivations," as you put it?

Just to clear this up, I didn't make a statement. In fact, I disagree with it being called child abuse. I also didn't consider it because I disbelieve in God, but because:

a) I've seen the question posed several times

b) Because I think about weird stuff and then write about it

I don't think you need to be non-religious to wonder if indoctrinating your child in your religion is child abuse either.It would be about the same as me wondering if shoving my disbelief down my kids throat is child abuse and I have thought about it and that's why I don't do it. I prefer for him to make up his own mind and I think it's my job to answer questions in as non-biased a manner as possible so that he can do that.

  • 2 votes
#1.28 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:52 AM EST
WaltUU

You are making no sense.

Incorrect. I'm making a lot of sense, and you'd rather I'd not have contributed so that you could have enjoyed an unrebutted soapbox for your nonsense.

Now that we have that out of the way, can you perhaps stick to the topic?

Scroll all the way up and you'll see the question.

Stop trying to evade what you wrote, now. My reply was to this, something YOU wrote: "The only one's who would ask such a question are the ones who don't believe in religion in the first place."

Now, tell me. Is that really a question or is it a " statement questioning someone else's motivations," as you put it?

It is a statement questioning someone else's motivations.

Now stop trying to evade what you wrote.

What's so wrong in questioning someone elses motivation when that someone else wants to stick their nose into someone elses parenting?

Read the thread, instead of just spewing derailing rhetoric, and you'll see that many posters have already answered that question.

  • 4 votes
#1.29 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:08 AM EST
clatz

I don't think what I have said is particularly controversial (from wikipedia):

Indoctrination is the process of inculcating ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology (see doctrine).[1] It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned.[2] As such the term may be used pejoratively, often in the context of education, political opinions, theology or religious dogma. Instruction in the scientific method, in particular, cannot properly be called indoctrination, in the sense that the fundamental principles of science call for critical self-evaluation and skeptical scrutiny of one's own ideas, a stance outside any doctrine.[3] In practice, however, a certain level of non-rational indoctrination, usually seen as miseducative, is invariably present.[4] The term is closely linked to socialization; in common discourse, indoctrination is often associated with negative connotations, while socialization refers to cultural or educational learning.

You are wrong, not all learning is conducted through indoctrination.

    #1.30 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:15 AM EST
    Drakkonis

    Grisham,

    I wasn't going after you in what I wrote. You're not the first to come up with that question, as I'm sure you know. I was talking about the question itself and trying not to include you personally. If you took it as such I didn't intend it as such. I think you did a fair job of covering all the bases.

    • 3 votes
    #1.31 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:38 AM EST
    Drakkonis

    You are making no sense.

    Incorrect. I'm making a lot of sense, and you'd rather I'd not have contributed so that you could have enjoyed an unrebutted soapbox for your nonsense.

    Now that we have that out of the way, can you perhaps stick to the topic?

    Still you make no sense. The topic, as far as I can tell, is is indoctrinating your children a form of child abuse. All that I have said deals with that question. Why such a question would be asked is certainly relevant to the discussion. I have no problem with rebuttal to my statement but so far you have not actually offered any rebuttal to anything I've said about the topic. So far, all you've done is complain that I've made a rebuttal to the question, not an actual rebuttal to what I said.

    Stop trying to evade what you wrote, now. My reply was to this, something YOU wrote: "The only one's who would ask such a question are the ones who don't believe in religion in the first place."

    I am not evading anything I wrote. I stand by what I said. I'd like to know where you think I'm trying to evade? Let me know so I can write somethign that definitively unevades it for you.

    Now, tell me. Is that really a question or is it a " statement questioning someone else's motivations," as you put it?

    It is a statement questioning someone else's motivations.

    Now stop trying to evade what you wrote.

    See? This is where you make no sense. You appear to agree with me here so what's your problem with what I've said? When I asked you, "now tell me, is that really a question... I was referring to "is indoctrinating your children a form of child abuse?" You responded with "It is a statement questioning someone else's motivations." If this is what you intended, that is, agreement with me, then what's your problem? And again, what am I evading? Are you just making that up or something?

    What's so wrong in questioning someone elses motivation when that someone else wants to stick their nose into someone elses parenting?

    Read the thread, instead of just spewing derailing rhetoric, and you'll see that many posters have already answered that question.

    You know, if anyone is attempting to derail things here, it's you. I stated my opinion to what was written. It was on topic. It wasn't aimed as an attack at any individual here. That you may not personally like my opinion is immaterial. Why not try something new yourself. Try responding to the issue and not to your dissatisfaction with my opinion? Because, personally, I don't care that you don't agree with me. That's your right.

    Let me help you get started. The issue is is indoctrinating children a form of child abuse?

    My position is that to even as the question, one must assume, or at least lean in the direction that religious indoctrination must be harmful in some way. Somewhat like asking is it child abuse to give children unrestricted access to alchohol. I reject that position. I could just as easily ask is it child abuse not to indoctrinate a child in religion. Since I believe in the God of the bible, should I not consider it an absue of a child to leave it on it's own devices rather than help it all I can in knowing it's creator?

    The reason I reject the quesiton of is it child abuse is that to even ask it one has to say that on some level religious indoctrination is at best dangerous and at worst outright abuse. We haven't even had that discussion, yet.

    • 2 votes
    #1.32 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:24 PM EST
    WaltUU

    Still you make no sense.

    Incorrect. I'm making a lot of sense, and you'd rather I'd not have contributed so that you could have enjoyed an unrebutted soapbox for your nonsense.

    The topic, as far as I can tell, is is indoctrinating your children a form of child abuse. All that I have said deals with that question.

    Bull. Don't you remember posting, "Ah. Then whom do you suppose would pose such a question, then?" and other assorted metadiscussion detritus?

    I have no problem with rebuttal to my statement but so far you have not actually offered any rebuttal to anything I've said about the topic.

    Again: Bull. You made an assertion, and I exposed how it was self-serving and without basis, and that you were supporting your contentions by presenting a logical fallacy, therefore making it clear that what you were insinuating was not defensible.

    I am not evading anything I wrote. I stand by what I said. I'd like to know where you think I'm trying to evade?

    I pointed out exactly where. I don't expect you to acknowledge where you are evading.

    See? This is where you make no sense.

    No: Again I'm making perfect sense. You're just denying it to evade having to grant it.

    When I asked you, "now tell me, is that really a question... I was referring to "is indoctrinating your children a form of child abuse?" You responded with "It is a statement questioning someone else's motivations."

    Did you even read the messages I wrote back to you or are you just posting without reading? I told you already:

    My reply was to this, something YOU wrote: "The only one's who would ask such a question are the ones who don't believe in religion in the first place."

    That you may not personally like my opinion is immaterial.

    This has nothing to do with me not liking your opinion; it has to do with you seemingly deliberately trying to evade what you wrote, by engaging in rhetorical games.

    My position is ...

    You are indeed welcome to say, "I repudiate all I've written so far and will start again to try to express my comments without saying the things earlier that were erroneous or indefensible."

    My position is that to even as[k] the question, one must assume, or at least lean in the direction that religious indoctrination must be harmful in some way.

    Wrong. You are welcome to assume that. It is not that one "must" assume that. There is a lot of religious indoctrination that is harmful. There is a lot of religious indoctrination that is not harmful. There is no value in questioning the motivations of the person asking the question as you did.

    So you did it again, and you probably still not willing to admit it.

    • 4 votes
    #1.33 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:52 PM EST
    Drakkonis

    Ok, I'm finished speaking with you. You actually aren't saying anything. You don't appear to be doing anything but arguing for argument's sake, like that Monty Python skit about argument. Go for it if that is your thing. It isn't mine. See ya.

    • 2 votes
    #1.34 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:39 PM EST
    PonGoad

    WaltUU

    There is no value in questioning the motivations of the person asking the question as you did.

    I agree with you when it comes to the everyday scheme of things and parents are asking themselves "

    Is Indoctrinating Your Children a Form of Child Abuse? (Ohh...sorry about it being so big...I am not being sarcastic here.. it is for real...big)

    I also understand that there are other people like Drakkonis who would ask themselves these questions first before attempting to answer "Is Indoctrination a Form of Child Abuse".

    The question cannot reasonably be answered without first answering the question of what is the reality of existence? Is it as the Atheist says and just some cosmic chance occurence or is it created by God with an express purpose?

    I have had interactions with Drakkonis before and, I may be wrong, but I have gotten the distinct impression that he is either a pastor or a student of religion. I believe anyone in either of these roles would tend to address the initial question of indoctrination being child abuse by asking themselves what formed the basis of the initial question to begin with. Although it seems he is not, in fact, to be addressing the initial question in-your-face, he actually is by stating you have to think about why the question arose to begin with.

    • 1 vote
    #1.35 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:53 PM EST
    PonGoad

    Drakkonis

    I know the time stamps seem to be far enough away for this not to happen, but your last comment was not there when I started #1.35. Oh well, have a good day - I give up.

    Pon

    • 1 vote
    #1.36 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:03 PM EST
    WaltUU

    I believe anyone in either of these roles would tend to address the initial question of indoctrination being child abuse by asking themselves what formed the basis of the initial question to begin with. Although it seems he is not, in fact, to be addressing the initial question in-your-face, he actually is by stating you have to think about why the question arose to begin with.

    PonGoad I know you mean well, but you're giving Drakkonis undue credit. "Thinking about why the question arose to begin with" would responsibly begin with, "Why would you, Grisham, ask that question?" Rather, Drakkonis posted a veiled attack on Grisham, "The question of is it child abuse to indoctrinate children in matters of faith is a red herring in the first place, to my mind. The only one's who would ask such a question are the ones who don't believe in religion in the first place." As you can see, Drakkonis was not exhibiting a seeking, open mind, but rather was expressing knee-jerk suspicion, and imposing his own bias stemming from his antipathy for the act of questioning indoctrination. To my mind, he wasn't digging deeper; he was looking to pile on his own dirt to cover over the question, in a vain attempt to derail serious consideration of it.

    • 3 votes
    #1.37 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:59 AM EST
    PonGoad

    WaltUU

    I am not talking about the writer of this article per se, I am talking about whoever brought it up that caused people to be in an uproar about. The writer is presenting views that were given along with his own.

    Agreed. It seemed to me that Drakkonis was talking about Grisham asking that question; hence the reason why I wrote the above.

    To my mind, he wasn't digging deeper; he was looking to pile on his own dirt to cover over the question, in a vain attempt to derail serious consideration of it.

    I guess it is something I should consider, except to my mind some of his conversations in other articles lead me to believe he might have been digging deeper.

    By the way, Good Morning.

    • 3 votes
    #1.38 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:34 AM EST
    WaltUU

    I guess it is something I should consider, except to my mind some of his conversations in other articles lead me to believe he might have been digging deeper.

    I think it is fair to say that there are different approaches someone can take to digging deeper:

    1) The straight-forward, "ask the question" way;

    2) The way that involves afflicting the question with biased, preconceived notions - the "Have you stopped beating your wife?" way; and

    3) All the different ways in between those two.

    • 3 votes
    #1.39 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:55 AM EST
    Reply
    clatz

    I think the negative reaction is really to the term child abuse. Screaming at your children is a form of verbal abuse, and therefore a form of child abuse. It's just that we don't normally phrase it that way. Atheists are using it to shock people into changing the way they think.

    We now know mental abuse can be just as damaging as physical and in time I believe that people will see the more extreme practices of religions as a form of abuse.

    This sort of thing : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNvnLFgH5BU

    Many religious people would baulk at that level of indoctrination, the question is what is an acceptable level?

    • 4 votes
    Reply#2 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:54 AM EST
    cried

    Sorry clatz, I refuse to be indoctrinated by the video you keep posting.

    • 1 vote
    #2.1 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:53 AM EST
    clatz

    Cried,

    That should be a different video. The one above shows the result of religious indoctrination, the other video 1.26 is comparing science to religion in terms of indoctrination.

    You are of course welcome to ignore both :-)

      #2.2 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:18 AM EST
      Reply
      Territan

      1) Children are mentally predisposed to believing what their parents tell them.

      My disagreement starts here, actually.

      It's not that children are predisposed to believing what parents tell them, it's that children learn from how the parents and those people around them act. The parents can go off all day on a particular message, but if those children see people doing well without that message, or better yet if the parents themselves act outside that message (e.g. "be kind to God's creatures" but runs a dogfighting ring), the children will take away a whole different message than the parents intended. They may be young, and their minds are still forming, but they can smell bull@!$%#.

      What happens next is the pinnacle of Unintended Consequences. The kids will likely grow up to reject the message if they see hypocrisy surrounding it. Or worse, they might decide they like the smell of bull@!$%#; they see others getting away with it, why not them?

      This destabilizes point (6). The rest seem more or less okay, although (4) is a bit shortish as definitions go.

      • 5 votes
      Reply#3 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:09 AM EST
      WaltUU

      The parents can go off all day on a particular message, but if those children see people doing well without that message, or better yet if the parents themselves act outside that message (e.g. "be kind to God's creatures" but runs a dogfighting ring), the children will take away a whole different message than the parents intended.

      Which is a very strong argument against parents insulating their children from "others".

      • 5 votes
      #3.1 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:33 AM EST
      Territan

      True, dat.

      Which is unfortunate, because that's why some parents specifically do want to insulate their children from others: to control the message. Never mind that the message might be incomplete, and children learn from others and their surroundings as much as they learn from their parents. The end result will likely be an incomplete person, poorly socialized outside a small group of people and missing otherwise human personality traits.

      • 5 votes
      #3.2 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:45 AM EST
      WaltUU

      The end result will likely be an incomplete person, poorly socialized outside a small group of people and missing otherwise human personality traits

      Which might explain Rick Santorum. Hmmmm.

      • 7 votes
      #3.3 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:53 AM EST
      Reply
      1devon

      My kids come from a mixed faith family. I'm Atheist while my husband is Christian. Although he believes in Jesus, he isn't all that impressed with the behavior of many/most American Christians or their churches. We never stepped foot in a church. Our kids were told what he believed, that I am/was not convinced there's a god, a little bit about Judaism, Islam, and Buddhism.

      Many times our kids were told by friends that if they didn't go to church on Sunday, they would go to hell. I told them that that was the very attitude we were vehemently against.

      I don't believe children should be indoctrinated. My husband felt that kids who had religion shoved down their throat, often didn't have true spirituality in their hearts. All I can say is that it worked for us.

      • 6 votes
      Reply#4 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:58 AM EST
      Halifax Oliver

      I don't believe it is at all. On a side note, I went to church all my life, and it pains me when I hear people say as children they were so afraid of Hell from what they learned in church. That is so horrible and ass backwards.

      But anyways, when I listen to my brother sound off on religion and church, I think, is he teaching his children to share his hatred? Maybe even without realizing it? Are his little boys going to grow up tolerant of others and their beliefs? If you talk about the illogical, loony Christians and their sky fairies in front of your children, and they grow up with disdain for religious people because of the way you are, is that much better than taking your kids to church?

      It is one thing to teach your children what you believe to be right and true because you feel it is best for them, but I think there is a line to be crossed when we try so hard to shelter them from what we disagree with or don't like. We are really doing them no favours, or helping them to be better people. And I mean that for anyone, Christian, Atheist, etc. I still wouldn't call it child abuse. I'd probably just call it irresponsible, bad parenting.

      • 4 votes
      Reply#5 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:24 AM EST
      Enoch-2699399

      Dear Friend Grisham: One could reverse the argument on Mr. Dawkins by making the case that denying children access to their faith community, lifestyle and beliefs is cutting them off from their past; reducing their possibilities in the present: and impeding their fulfillment in the future. That would surely constitute child abuse by any reasonable definition.

      My point being that every parent has the right, and the responsibility to raise their offspring with that set of values which they feel is in the best interest of the children.

      If Mr. Dawkins thinks religion isn't for this children, it isn't for me to argue with that decision. Conversely, how I raised my children, and assist in the raising of my grandchildren isn't any of Mr. Dawkins affair.

      Great article Grish. Raises some interesting points. As in the field of mathematics, commutativity obtains here. For every text quoting example in or out of context that makes Mr. Dawkins and others think religious instruction is child abuse, one could play the same game for non-believers in religion, based on similar exercises in whatever values and cultures to which they subscribe. In the end, it is all about every family doing what they feel is best for their children.

      Some forms of abuse are obvious, and universally agreed upon. Child molestation, for example. For the bulk of it, if we are honest, we have to admit that what is best isn't all that clear for all as it is form some. The smaller the group, the greater the clarity.

      The strength of a society is its ability to allow maximum freedom, however much not everyone or even anyone feels about it when others choose what they do not.

      Peace and Blessings to one and all.

      Enoch.

      • 8 votes
      Reply#6 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:06 AM EST
      clatz

      One could reverse the argument on Mr. Dawkins by making the case that denying children access to their faith community, lifestyle and beliefs is cutting them off from their past; reducing their possibilities in the present: and impeding their fulfillment in the future.

      Has Dawkins suggested that?

      • 5 votes
      #6.1 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:14 AM EST
      Enoch-2699399

      Dear Clatz: I am not sure he has, or would.

      I merely make the point that the argument could be reversed. Turn about is fair play.

      Good point raised. FR invite sent.

      Peace and Blessings, Enoch.

      • 3 votes
      #6.2 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:53 AM EST
      clatz

      Hi Enoch,

      FR Accepted!

      It's been quite some time since I read the God Delusion, but I believe Mr Dawkins was at pains to point out that learning about our cultural/religious heritage is very important. For instance, he makes the argument that you cannot fully appreciate the works of Shakespeare without knowing some of the Bible.

      Personally I have never understood either :-)

      • 8 votes
      #6.3 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:24 AM EST
      Reply
      CommisarCain

      No, it is not abuse to indoctrinate your children. People only call it "indoctrination" when someone else does it.

      • 3 votes
      Reply#7 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:07 AM EST
      Future History

      Exposing your child to religion isn't child abuse. However, you certainly are not doing them any favors if you don't qualify the information with some measure of reality. Most small children don't have the faculties to differentiate fable from truth. Fable is an enormous part of what scripture represents, and the subject should be made aware of that, no matter how young they are. Think about what a heinous and vile atrocity the story of Noah and the great flood represents. No child should ever be led to believe that this hideous act ever could occur, particularly at the hand of the one entity that supposedly loves the child even more than his or her parents - yet who hasn't ever seen a childrens' book shaped like an ark, with happy pairs of animals peering over the railing as if they are just out for a sunny day on the water? Should the child really have a thought seeded into their head that at one time there was a planet that was filled with innocent children just like them, that ultimately were mercilessly drowned because the parents were breaking God's rules?

      • 6 votes
      Reply#8 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:12 AM EST
      DarwinWasRight

      Well, many religious folks spew out tons of children because they view it as a means to perpetuate their own religious superstitions. So, do I think the level of indoctrination in such families approach child abuse? Possibly. However, bringing out the "child abuse" rhetoric probably falls into the area of hyperbole and does little to bring about constructive dialog on how children should be enabled to make their own decisions regarding religion.

      • 5 votes
      Reply#9 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:14 PM EST
      PonGoad

      Hi DarwinWasRight

      I don't agree with you that it should be considered child abuse, but I do agree with your statement about

      bringing out the "child abuse" rhetoric probably falls into the area of hyperbole and does little to bring about constructive dialog on how children should be enabled to make their own decisions regarding religion.

      My sons were reared in a heavy doctrinated religion. When they reached the age (5th-7th grade) to where they had to attend confirmation classes, both of them started asking questions and I mean very pointed questions about religion...such as:

      1.) Why are there so many different religions?

      2.) Is God the same in all religions?

      3.) Why do different religions believe different things?

      4.) How can what the Bible teaches be true when there are different interpretations of it?

      5.) How can G-d be true if not all religions believe the same things?

      ...Questions like this.

      No one, including myself, have ever been able to answer these questions to their satisfaction. My children are now agnostic.

      __________________________

      I think being taught about J-sus and G-d at a young age is not necessarily a bad thing. My children were still able to ask questions and make their own decisions about what they believe. What I think happens, though, is because of learning (mild form of indoctrination) about G-d, J-sus at a young age, it is difficult to give up the belief that there is a higher being somewhere in the universe. I do not think this is a bad thing. Sometimes, you need the existential existence of an etherial figure to lean on when you feel all alone even when you have people all around you.

      Pon

      • 2 votes
      #9.1 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:43 PM EST
      Reply
      Da Quiet One

      If it is then the entire nation is guilty of indoctrinating children/parents/adults in some form or another. In the end however everyone makes their own decisions so I have to go with no it is not abuse.

      • 3 votes
      Reply#10 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:49 PM EST
      Zero-

      i say depend on the indoctrination. my religion has an indoctrination ritual it requires 5 drops of blood on the corners of a pentagram. may have accused us of child abuse but it is done willingly when the child is 7 and has had that time to choose to follow there parents religion. we never force it it is there choice and there choice alone. our religion never tries to infulance or convert.

      then there is stuff like a gang indoc then yeah beating up a child to get him/her into the gang now that is wrong. that shouldnt be tolorated

      • 2 votes
      Reply#11 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:31 PM EST
      Miss_Diagnosed

      I think there is a line somewhere...

      Would we all think that the children who were taken away during the Mormon Extremist case of what's his name where the women were all wearing prarie dresses and taken into protective custody as child abuse? Or is that teaching them about their fundamentalist Mormon religion?

      What about those Westboro Baptist kids? Would people think "thank goodness" if the kids were taken away from that environment?

      But judging the line is a slippery slope... I mean, what's to stop the "invisible hand" from taking anyone's kids away? What about now? We already take kids away for obvious neglect...

      I think there is a very large hole in the children protective services that is impossible to cover. Take the recent Seattle boys being burned alive by their father... it's all this grey area... and to throw extreme religion into it, or even moderate religion... yikes...

      Too much to think on...

      • 2 votes
      Reply#12 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:46 PM EST
      Lynne from IL

      Parents are a culmination of life experience (including their parents values) and as such pick and choose what they believe will benefit their children. I don't view indoctrination as child abuse. Can it become abuse? Yes, particularly when children begin to utilize critical thinking skills.

      What does a family do when children question or no longer adhere to the belief system taught? For me this is the critical question! At 15-years of age, my professed Christian Granddaughter, told me she wasn't going with the "Jesus" part any longer and had an entirely different spiritual belief system than I did. I didn't condemn her to hell, belittle her or call her a fool....I respected her and parented (her Mom died when she was 2)! She is no longer a part of our church youth group; yet out of respect and love for me still attends church. She knows how important my faith is and how it became the only solace when her Mom died.

      We have awesome conversations and I've learned not to freak out when she drops another bomb counter to my values. I'm thankful she feels secure enough to bring me whatever is on her mind.

      • 2 votes
      Reply#13 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:31 PM EST
      Lynne from IL

      ..sorry, double posted

      • 1 vote
      Reply#14 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:31 PM EST
      tzia62

      I don't think it's abuse at all. My daughters went to church until they hit High School and I felt they could decide for themselves if they wanted to continue to go. the made some great friends there and have some fond memories while attending church.

      • 2 votes
      Reply#15 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:36 PM EST
      American Spirit

      If done with pain and threats of torture in the prepubscient years, it's abuse. That virtually wipes away their free will their entire lifetime to form their own opinions of the subject later on. Those memories are locked into their core.

      You'll see that angry reaction in many if you doubt their beliefs. It's like a PTSD effect. That pain/fear reaches up and grabs their mind. They don't dare "think" differently than they were programmed to believe. The only thing that can usually shatter that rigid indoctrination is a tragedy in their life. I wish that on no one so simply do my best to avoid ones that are so seriously under the influence of religion.

      Otherwise, it's 50-50% on whether it could really be called abuse. People indoctrinate their children in many areas. Most usually see through it if need be.

      • 3 votes
      Reply#16 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:07 PM EST
      Dowser

      I don't see that any parent can prevent from teaching our children our beliefs. I'm not speaking of emotional or physical abuse, but I am speaking of teaching your children your core value system.

      Your children know you better than you know yourself. I learn from Peep, every day, in that he makes me re-examine my core values, so that I may try to give him the best of the best, and to try to live the best of the best. And boy, do I fall short sometimes!

      When teaching your children bleeds over into "indoctrination" is when the child does not benefit from learning the parent's values... I'm thinking those weird situations, like the Branch Davidians or something. Children whose parents teach them awful things, like live animal sacrifice or something... Those children don't benefit from learning of their parent's beliefs, and, those situations, in fact, may lead to forms of abuse...

      But then, you have the Amish, whose culture is somewhat separate from the rest of us-- but not bad, in any way... I don't think those children are 'indoctrinated' as just reared as the Amish rear their children. There is a difference between teaching and indoctrination-- maybe it is a matter of degree. To me, the word "indoctrination" sort of means, "my way or the highway", while teaching allows for personal values of the child to be nurtured... I'm probably not saying this well, am I?

      Well, I tried. I am slowly venturing outward after last week... Dipping a toe in the vast sea of communication out here... Forgive me, please, for not being able to articulate my thoughts better.

      • 3 votes
      Reply#17 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:46 PM EST
      Grisham

      I think you did a great job expressing your point of view, Dowser. I hope all is well on your end. *hugs*

      • 2 votes
      #17.1 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:07 PM EST
      Dowser

      I am hoping that all is well on your end, dear Grish. I think of you each and every day.

      (((((((((((((((Grish)))))))))))))) I love you, my friend.

      • 1 vote
      #17.2 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:30 PM EST
      Reply
      lastofall

      If we which believe were to give heed to the unbelieving world´s view of what we believe, we then would most miserably be without hope. There is a reason why God´s Word tells us, "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight"! For this cause is the love of the Truth in Christ Jesus hid from them, because they are lost, because the god of this world has blinded their eyes, and closed their ears. Nevertheless we which believe shall still hope and wish with the true and living God that none would perish, but that they would rather come to repentance.

      • 1 vote
      Reply#18 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:05 AM EST
      clatz

      That's not the God of your parents by any chance is it?

      Why don't you tell us what Zeus thinks.

      • 1 vote
      #18.1 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:37 AM EST
      WaltUU

      we then would most miserably be without hope

      That's a rationalization for abiding a mythology, true, but not necessarily your chosen mythology.

      • 1 vote
      #18.2 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:11 AM EST
      Reply
      ana78041

      I feel like it is a form of mental abuse. I remember one time (I think I was 16) I refused to go to church and my mother told me "Why don't you follow good things? Why do you always follow bad behaviors?"

      It still tears me apart today that she pretty much called me a bad person for not going to church. I had been refusing to go for a while but I guess she was in a bad mood that morning. Oh and I hate it when they try to get you to go to church and they bring up restaurants to go right after if you do go. I stopped falling for it at age 16.

      • 3 votes
      Reply#19 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:00 AM EST
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