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GRISHAM

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There is no need for temples, no need for complicated philosophies. My brain and my heart are my temples; my philosophy is kindness. Dalai Lama
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Militant Atheism and Disrespecting Religion

Thu Feb 9, 2012 12:07 AM EST
religion
By Grisham
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Religious ideas seem to live within a cocoon of respect. To question the ideas of religion can result in being labeled a ‘militant atheist’. To criticize religious ideas is often labeled disrespectful by the religious – as if their religious ideas aren’t open to the same criticism that other ideas are routinely open too.

If applied properly, the term ‘militant atheism’ would only be applied to atheists who wish to suppress religion by force. However, the term is often used to describe any atheist that speaks out against religion, religious extremism, theism, religious ideas and does so without being meek, mild and deferential in their criticism.

It’s a double standard for sure. We don’t call Christians militant Christians when they call homosexuals abominations or when they criticize atheists because they think we have no morals. We don’t call them militant Christians when they send out missionaries to convert people, put billboards up that tell people they risk burning in eternal torment if they don’t believe in their God or spread their message on TV or through the media. That’s perfectly okay to do if you’re religious. You won’t be labeled a militant Christian.

However, if you’re an atheist, it is disrespectful to put up billboards spreading your message or criticizing religion. Here’s an example from a recent news story:

As a Colorado atheist group purchases space for three billboards in major cities in Colorado, one Christian research fellow refers to their efforts as "bad manners."

"They say their ad is intended to spark dialogue with people of faith on the existence of God, but you don't draw people into conversation by poking fun of the beliefs," Glenn Stanton, director for Family Formation Studies at Focus on the Family in Colorado Springs, told The Christian Post.

Stanton was referring to a billboard sponsored by Boulder Atheists that states, "God is an imaginary friend; Choose reality, it will be better for all of us."

"Pew reports that 92 percent of Americans believe in God or some higher being," Stanton pointed out. "And more than 70 percent say they have a firm, confident belief in God. And this atheist group equates that very widely-held belief to a small child having an imaginary friend to play with."

I suppose this sign is more disrespectful than the one I pass going home that basically says I will burn in Hell if I’m not a believer in Jesus.

Now if an atheist group was advocating for forcefully destroying church property or creating laws outlawing religion, then you could accurately apply the term ‘militant’ to them. But most times, believers don’t do that. They just apply the term willy-nilly whenever they feel threatened by a vehement argument against their religious ideas. It’s not being used in any way accurately but instead as an attack on the person to try and discredit them and make their argument seem less valid. They are trying to demonize the atheist for speaking out against what they perceive as a very bad idea and one that causes great harm to society and perhaps societies around the world.

It’s the same reason why some believers will say that atheists have no morals. They’re trying to demonize the atheist and portray them as someone who can’t be trusted. There is no data or facts to back this claim up. It’s made purely out of either ignorance or an attempt to discredit the atheist or sadly, both.

In North America, Christianity has enjoyed a privileged status for a very long time. Terms like ‘fundamentalist atheist’ and ‘militant atheist’ are used as a way of shaming the atheist into being quiet. If all atheists are quiet and act deferentially towards religion, it gives religion more credibility and allows them to continue with their privileged status unquestioned.

No other idea is given this type of leeway or respect. If you’re a Liberal, you can bet your bottom dollar that if you bring your Liberal ideology into an open forum, you’ll probably meet a Conservative who holds strong views that oppose your own. Nobody says the Conservative is militant if they harshly criticize your ideology. The same can be said of Conservatives meeting a hardcore Liberal. The Conservative can bet on being challenged and that is the way most things work.

I agree that treating people with respect is a good idea. If I were a hardcore Conservative, for example, I would try to treat the Liberal with respect, but that doesn’t mean I have to necessarily treat their Liberal ideology with respect. I could question it, criticize it and try to prove it wrong. It’s fair game.

In my books, religion is fair game and it’s enjoyed a privileged status in the world for too long already. If that makes me ‘militant’ then so be it. I won’t treat ideas I see as harmful and misplaced with kid gloves because a majority believes in it. It deserves to be looked at and scrutinized with the same level of scrutiny as any other idea that affects our society in the same profound ways as religion does.

And to be clear, I don’t even mind when religious people share their ideas with me or try to convert me. It’s fair game. But they have to expect the same level of treatment back. I do my best to remain civil (which isn’t usually hard to do) but I won’t kowtow or bend the knee to religious ideas I see as harmful.

I’ll question and challenge those ideas till my dying breath, like I’ll challenge any idea I don’t agree with.

 

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Grisham

I hope you enjoyed reading the article. Feel free to add your own thoughts and thanks for reading.

  • 11 votes
Reply#1 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 12:10 AM EST
Big Cat-4416462

Hey Grisham, good article, one that I am sure will bring great debate. LOL

Ok, now I am speaking from a purely ignorant upbringing, of course I am not saying I am stupid nor my parents, just as we have discussed before, I was small town southern Baptist raised, which means I had a very limited view of the world. I remember growing up only occasionally hearing the word "Atheist", and it wasn't exactly said but now I feel it was implied, they were of the devil trying to bring down God. Of course as I grew up, I know that is different, and the short time I have been on here, I have learned so much more. But that being said, I will agree with most of the debate from both sides on this issue. I don't like to see billboards attacking anybody, and I haven't actually seen the ones in CO. But, if I were to see a billboard saying"imaginary friend", or in any way belittling something people hold dear to them... I don't like it. Same goes for any billboard calling Atheists "Militant", or any kind of smear campaign towards them.

I would hope that the idea behind either side of the issue, is what do they bring to the table of life. In other words, maybe a sign that says "Helping feed kids in Africa" sponsored by...fill in the blank church, or "helping the elderly" sponsored by...Americans for Atheists (sorry I don't know what to put there). I have said before, I HATE POLITICS, if I give money to the church, it is for helping someone out, not putting up billboards trying to smear people or tell them come to my house because that house will take you to Hell. It is not politics people, it is real life with real outcomes, this is the heart we are talking about.

The true path to understanding each other, doesn't come from a clinched fist, it doesn't come from me telling you "Hey you are going to Hell if you don't do what this book says". It starts with a hello, a handshake, and living by example. I want you to ask me, "Hey Cat why are you so happy?" or "what makes you tick man", that is when I can say, "you being my friend, this beautiful life, my family, and God". If you ask to follow me to church or learn more... then a truly WWJD moment just occurd. (and I am talking about the man, not the churchy stuff)

The same holds true for any faith, thought, care, belief, concern, or indifference. Who cares about all the other crap, who cares who is right, who cares who finishes first. There is one fact that we can all agree on. In about 100 years from your first breath you will die. It is a very small amount of time to be here. I hope there is something after, for all of our sake. I am a very insignificant little speck in the grand scheme of things. Who gave me the power to decide who gets to share in what is after or not. I WAS given the power do what is right to others, to live by example, to care for loved ones, protect loved ones, and to make everyone around me happy. It is also within my power to squander all of that.

Use your time wisely people

Cat

  • 7 votes
#1.1 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 3:04 AM EST
Grisham

Great post, Cat.

But that being said, I will agree with most of the debate from both sides on this issue. I don't like to see billboards attacking anybody, and I haven't actually seen the ones in CO. But, if I were to see a billboard saying"imaginary friend", or in any way belittling something people hold dear to them... I don't like it.

Funny you should bring this up. Atheist groups are now starting campaigns that have nice sayings or something totally innocuous to see if they still get attacked by religious organizations even when they put up billboards that aren't 'offensive' in the least. I think the results will be interesting.

"Hey Cat why are you so happy?" or "what makes you tick man", that is when I can say, "you being my friend, this beautiful life, my family, and God". If you ask to follow me to church or learn more... then a truly WWJD moment just occurd. (and I am talking about the man, not the churchy stuff)

I have a funny feeling that if every church group or Christian thought this way, you'd have far more converts.

I remember growing up only occasionally hearing the word "Atheist", and it wasn't exactly said but now I feel it was implied, they were of the devil trying to bring down God.

I wouldn't doubt it. There are articles about people who are both gay and atheists and they said it was harder to come out as an atheist than it was to come out as gay. Considering the level of anti-gay sentiment out there, that should tell you something.

I don't like to see billboards attacking anybody, and I haven't actually seen the ones in CO. But, if I were to see a billboard saying"imaginary friend", or in any way belittling something people hold dear to them... I don't like it. Same goes for any billboard calling Atheists "Militant", or any kind of smear campaign towards them.

I'm kind of in the middle. I wouldn't run out and hammer up a sign saying something like that, but I support their right to do it, just as I support the right of religious people to do the same.

However, I'm a big fan of debating or listening to ideas and I think religion is one big idea that affects our society in a multitude of ways and so it deserves the same scrutiny and criticism as any other idea.

Truly, you're posts are awesome. I love reading them. Thanks for posting, bro.

God bless *Grisham getting church-y LOL*

  • 9 votes
#1.2 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 3:22 AM EST
cowboygrandpa

Grisham:

I get tired of seeing billboards from both groups when they are basically attacking one group or another.

Ya know, who likes getting poked in the eye with a sharp stick ??

That would be like me standing on the corner holding up a sign that said God hates everyone I do. It would attempt equate God with my limited love, beliefs, knowledge and understanding. I wouldn't honor a god like that because He would be no better than me.

I kind of prefer a sign that says. God Loves you regardless of what anybody else says. Accept His Peace and be at peace. Or don't.

Not condemning anyone, because I really do not want to, not saying I'm beter than anyone else because I'm not. Just accepting and living in His Peace.

  • 6 votes
#1.3 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 4:09 AM EST
Grisham

That would be like me standing on the corner holding up a sign that said God hates everyone I do.

Like the Westboro idiots? LOL

I think positive messages are better than non-positive ones. I chose that one for this article because it was one of the more 'offensive' ones, but most aren't. The reason I think positive ones are better is because when questioned, they (either group I suppose) could make comments that put their group in a positive light while negative ads make it so they have to defend their position.

But even so, I support the rights of both groups to post their signs.

However, I don't think criticizing religion (even vehemently or mockingly) should result in being labeled a militant anything.

Great comment, CG.

  • 8 votes
#1.4 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 4:22 AM EST
Uthaclena

Grisham

However, I don't think criticizing religion (even vehemently or mockingly) should result in being labeled a militant anything.

There seems to be a belief among many religious believers that "respect" for their views means that they will be free from question or criticism - "Anything you want to believe is okay with me;" but when it flatly contradicts reality, well, it would be a "sin" not to call them out on it.

  • 6 votes
#1.5 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 8:46 AM EST
mrsrachelm

However, I don't think criticizing religion (even vehemently or mockingly) should result in being labeled a militant anything.

If you question with respect, you generally will get respectful answers. If you mock someone, don't be surprised how they react to it nor expect them to respect you. Secondarily, those who question mockingly aren't questioning to learn, compare ideas, or able to agree to disagree with mutual respect. They are not questioning at all but simply mocking for it's own sake. Those individuals get little respect because they deserve little respect....except by those who also simply like to be belittling of others base solely on the fact they don't believe like they do.

So no, it's not okay to mock and verbally attacking someone by mocking them for embracing beliefs that differ from your own -will- get you labeled. This also goes for those who verbally mock atheists or any other religious belief system as well. Mocking only breeds contempt and snowballs into a monster.

  • 7 votes
#1.6 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 8:55 AM EST
Grisham

So no, it's not okay to mock and verbally attacking someone by mocking them for embracing beliefs that differ from your own -will- get you labeled.

Then label them with the proper label. Just call them rude if that's how you feel about the situation. Militant doesn't fit.

.except by those who also simply like to be belittling of others base solely on the fact they don't believe like they do.

Depends on the situation. If you tell me I'm going to hell based on your theology or belief or that homosexuals deserve to be discriminated against and are abominations, you can probably expect to be mocked and deserve it.

If we're discussing something like Jesus' stance on helping the poor, then it would be an open question. Or if you're debating the existence of God, it would be an open question with both sides presenting their views.

  • 10 votes
#1.7 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 9:03 AM EST
Nick46

Disrespect for religion? I respect only my religion. But I don't respect or disrespect yours. Your religion is a non entity to me. As it should for most people. Mind your own business.

  • 2 votes
#1.8 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 10:43 AM EST
clatz

If all atheists are quiet and act deferentially towards religion, it gives religion more credibility and allows them to continue with their privileged status unquestioned.

I haven't heard it put that way before Grisham, but you are absolutely right. That's the beauty of the Internet. The religious can huff and puff all they like, but they will not be able to stifle free thought anymore.

A classic argument from a religious person is to point to all of the great people in the past that were religious as some sort of proof that religion is a good thing, completely ignoring the fact that non-believers and dissenters were put to death, tutured or even worse. The shackles of oppressions are off now and surprise surprise the majority of top Scientists are non-believers.

"Pew reports that 92 percent of Americans believe in God or some higher being,"

Does it matter that very few of them believe in the same thing, even the Christians?

It's another way religion tries to remain credible is to present itself as unified. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Catholic church furore over the contraception mandate is a classic example. Some bloated bishop whines away on TV about the church being disrespected etc, does it even matter that Catholics themselves use contraception? Why should anyone give a toss what the Church says when even their own followers don't?

The Emperor has no clothes ... there said it and it feels good.

  • 6 votes
#1.9 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 11:20 AM EST
jedipunk

Reminds me of one of my favorite comics LINK

and my favorite tool to measure extremism LINK

  • 3 votes
#1.10 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:48 AM EST
Reply
greg81082-4115372

I'm personally sick of people imposing their alleged values on others by citing their invisible sky deity. To live and walk in the here and now and pay attention to the constant changes all around seems enough to me. I don't want to fear what I can't see and worship what I can't possibly understand.

I'll leave that up to churches and such. Dogma is still Am god backwards.

Being a CO resident, Focus on the Family billboard are more rampant than Atheist ones. Religion is responsible for more human slaughter and sufferng save for natural disasters. Tide goes in, tide goes out.

  • 10 votes
Reply#2 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 12:51 AM EST
big air al

well how about intelligent design dumb ass trying to have it taught in schools that purity dam militant. they would know the truth if they tried that's what happens wen your brainwashed for century's .if they really thoughts about it there atheists also they just have one less religion than atheists because Zeus's is god to some fool believe in don't be a fool!!!!! YA I'M TALK TO YOU

  • 3 votes
Reply#3 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 2:28 AM EST
Abby.

Do you mind if I clip this to a few atheist groups?
It's a great article.

  • 4 votes
Reply#4 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 4:06 AM EST
Grisham

I'd be honored. Thanks, Abby. :)

  • 5 votes
#4.1 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 4:07 AM EST
Abby.

Done,luvvy.
(and thankYOU)
:)

  • 3 votes
#4.2 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 5:47 AM EST
Reply
Hecate's Daughter

You know, as an eclectic Wiccan I see it like this: I don't care what anybody else believes, so long as they are happy and harm no one else; the Creator I believe in doesn't care and loves all life; acts of love, joy, and peace are the only rites and rituals that matter; if you're religious, keep it in your home and heart; teach science in school; allow gays and lesbians to marry (this is clearly and act of love and joy); and don't get it into your mind that your religion (or lack of one) makes you better than anyone else.
Oh, and don't tie me to anything and set me on fire.
HD :)

  • 15 votes
Reply#5 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 5:37 AM EST
Abby.

Well put, HD!
:)

  • 7 votes
#5.1 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 5:48 AM EST
Grisham

Nicely said, HD! Definitely no stake tying.

  • 6 votes
#5.2 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 5:51 AM EST
Brite

So Mote It BE! :)

  • 4 votes
#5.3 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 9:59 AM EST
Reply
kim me

I didn't know that there was a god or religion till I came to Canada in late '57. There were morning prayers and religious studies in school then. My parents encouraged me to get involved to understand their views. I read the bible and thought that the new testament was really good because it believed in tolerance and helping those in need.

I am still an atheist, but I have high respect of those that follow the new testament. Cowboygrandpa is a great example. The same goes for most Muslims. But when you cross the line and condemn others for their beliefs or lack of, you are not following the book.

As I tell everyone, the only ones that know the truth are not talking. Because they are dead.

Everyone I meet is my friend till they prove me otherwise. That is my motto. I have met atheists that I didn't like. I do not judge the person because of their religion. I judge them for who they are and not what they are.

My 5 years hitch-hiking across NA in the 60's taught me a lot of things, like tolerance.

I love and agree with your posts.

  • 6 votes
Reply#6 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 5:48 AM EST
Grisham

There were morning prayers and religious studies in school then. My parents encouraged me to get involved to understand their views.

Your mom sounds very wise.

I have met atheists that I didn't like. I do not judge the person because of their religion. I judge them for who they are and not what they are.

Nicely said, kim. FR sent and thank you so much for your comment and kind words.

  • 4 votes
#6.1 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 5:56 AM EST
kim me

Actually, it was my father. My mother hated my wife because she was taller than me, she was not Scandinavian, She was part Ojibwa and she was mainly (drum roll) German. This May it will be 39 years together and we still love each other.

    #6.2 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 10:53 PM EST
    Reply
    Dowser

    If there is militant atheism, then there are also militant religious groups, too. I see anyone that pushes a religious/atheist viewpoint on others as being, uh, at best-- impolite.

    I like what Elizabeth I said, "I will not open windows into men's souls!"

    • 5 votes
    Reply#7 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 6:41 AM EST
    Grisham

    Hi dear Dowser! An example of a militant Christian would be the guy who kills abortion doctors because he thinks it's Gods will. A guy knocking on my door and asking if I've been saved and trying to convince me to convert wouldn't (and shouldn't) be classified as militant. Perhaps impolite, depending on how you view the situation. I know some people get kinda pissed off at religious people knocking on their doors, but I never have. Usually, they're very nice people.

    • 6 votes
    #7.1 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 6:47 AM EST
    Dowser

    Yep. I agree wholeheartedly on that!

    I just don't answer the door. Of late, I think the militants have come out of the woodwork, like cockroaches. The political climate is one of such anger, such my-way-or-the-highway. While it has happened before, (think of Lincoln, and what HE dealt with), it isn't pretty.

    Impolite was the only word I could think of at that moment. I would think of that as your normal person who feels that he has the ticket, and will get it stamped if he converts someone. Militants who are willing to murder, well, they're just common criminals, pushing their personal agenda, and using God to hide behind. I believe that their ticket will be 'revoked'.

    • 3 votes
    #7.2 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 7:03 AM EST
    Reply
    Laochra

    “Militant” atheism is probably an exaggeration. Ive rarely, if ever truth be told, heard of an atheist organisation attempt to end the practice of religion through legislative action, unlike certain religious extremists that like nothing more than attempt to impose their beliefs on others through the legal system. However, that being said, there are a lot of rude atheists out that are just jackasses. They are the atheists version of Rick Santorum or Michelle Bachmann that view any kind of religious showing in public view as horrifying and call for their immediate dismantling or are condescending towards those with religious beliefs and do in fact treat them like their children.

    A bit of mutual respect and live and let live is required from the extremists on both side. Personally, I don’t have a religion and I don’t know what the hell I do or don’t believe in but I couldn’t care less about what anyone else believes so long as they don’t attempt to change the law to force me to accept their world view.

    • 3 votes
    Reply#8 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 8:18 AM EST
    sugarcupidDeleted
    Live and let live please

    Ah yes, an excellent point Grisham. While I must admit as an atheist that it makes me sad when I hear other atheists attacking religion with the same venom that many religious folks attack atheism, I confess that I hadn't really thought about the term 'militant atheist' before, and now that I think about it, it is a bit of a double standard... Though I suppose militant atheist does have equivalents for Christianity, we just call them fundamentalist or evangelical Christians instead of militant.

    There is a lot of mislabeling on the Vine... Questioning a religious idea is not the same thing as attacking that religion. I know, because I have seen atheists do both, and have learned to recognize the difference. Attacking anyone's beliefs (or lack thereof) should not be accepted, regardless of your own beliefs. But questioning them is fine, so long as it is done respectfully. Good article Grisham!

    • 4 votes
    Reply#10 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 8:32 AM EST
    Grisham

    Though I suppose militant atheist does have equivalents for Christianity, we just call them fundamentalist or evangelical Christians instead of militant.

    Sort of but not really. I think fundamentalist Christian is sometimes used to mean extremist, but that wouldn't really be accurate either although it could be in some cases. But there are fundamentalists (people who believe in the fundamentals of the Bible) who aren't extremists and who actually support secular movements like the separation of church and state and oppose things like legislating religious views on homosexuals etc. While they believe in the fundamentals, they don't necessarily think those beliefs should be forced on others.

    An evangelical Christian or an evangelical atheist is usually used to mean someone who tries to spread their faith or lack of faith in the case of the atheist, and I'm good with that. I don't think there is anything wrong with spreading your ideas or debating them. Once they try making them laws is when I usually have the problem with it. I do have a problem with many Christian doctrines but that doesn't mean I begrudge them their right to believe it and I hope they don't mind me having a right to oppose it either.

    Great post, Live. :)

    • 2 votes
    #10.1 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 8:43 AM EST
    Reply
    Rick_VT

    a lot of rude atheists out that are just jackasses...

    at probably the same percentage as rude Christians that are jackasses or the percentage of rude people in any organized group out there.

    That said, to refer to one's belief in a supreme being as an "imaginary friend" is totally insulting and rude as you're calling them children - as in only a child would play with an imaginary friend.

    That said, perhaps organizations that promote their particular Christian (or other) church beliefs to be the only path to the heavenly afterlife should be required to clearly state on their billboards that the product offered (eternal salvation) cannot be in any way guaranteed to be safe, effective or proven to actually exist. Does it beat a placebo in blind testing? What were the results? Doesn't truth in advertising apply?

    Maybe neither side should be in the bill-boarding game if they can't play nice.

    • 5 votes
    Reply#11 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 8:49 AM EST
    trm2008

    That said, to refer to one's belief in a supreme being as an "imaginary friend" is totally insulting and rude

    No more rude than being told you're going to hell because you don't believe as they do.

    • 9 votes
    #11.1 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 9:22 AM EST
    HeelsnHairMetal

    That said, to refer to one's belief in a supreme being as an "imaginary friend" is totally insulting and rude as you're calling them children - as in only a child would play with an imaginary friend.

    I think that is an appropriate statement, because it draws the closest comparison to what people who believe in a higher being do. If a child believes in someone who cannot be seen, heard, or felt, we call it a phase that they will grow out of. But if that same child believes in someone who cannot be seen, heard, or felt and says that person is God, then we praise them for their faith. How does that work? Alternatively, if a person says that he hears voices or talks to someone who cannot be seen or heard, we question their sanity. If a person says that they speak to God, we praise them for their faith? How does that work? We giggle at the Greeks and Romans and called Zeus, Hera, and Aries imaginary, but are willing to go to the ends of the earth to defend the existence of a Judeo-Christian deity?

    Calling a deity an "imaginary friend" encompasses the atheist viewpoint and draws an accurate comparison.

    • 6 votes
    #11.2 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 10:36 AM EST
    LMSLMS

    Calling a deity an "imaginary friend" encompasses the atheist viewpoint and draws an accurate comparison.

    Calling a deity an "imaginary friend" is being generous. For starters, it is, in fact, silly to think there is an invisible man in the sky who looks down on us all and has an opinion about things like foreign or domestic policy, for e.g., same-sex marriage. It is silly to think there is an invisible man in the sky who wrote a book called the bible, and that everything in it is his word. So much hate has been spewed and so much damage done in the name of religion. I think it is ok to be critical.

    • 2 votes
    #11.3 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 7:57 PM EST
    Kevin S.-2696867

    Calling someone's god an imaginary friend is no more rude than telling an atheist he or she is going to hell. And the Christian railing about hell is making an extraordinary claim without evidence, and thus has less of a leg to stand on.

    • 2 votes
    #11.4 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 8:44 PM EST
    kim me

    Have any of you considered that religion is for many people a stabilising that they need? I would never insult a believer. When they stretch the truth, I try to reign them in. But I will never insult them. Please give them their crutch and don't insult. It just creates more animosity, and we do not need that.

    • 1 vote
    #11.5 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 11:06 PM EST
    Clara Listensprechen

    Riiight. Never insult a baby dependent on his Binkie, or an adult dependent on that fake cigarette in his mouth. This is SERIOUS.

    Riiiiiiight.

    • 1 vote
    #11.6 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 11:24 PM EST
    kim me

    You have just proven my point.

      #11.7 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 11:54 PM EST
      Clara Listensprechen

      ...as you have proven mine. There once was an emperor who was sold the finest clothing in the world and he paid a lot for his new fineries. Because he was emperor, everyone respected that he was an emperor despite the fact that he was in the streets buck naked, and suitably fleeced for the fool that he really was.

      • 3 votes
      #11.8 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:03 AM EST
      Reply
      DonVito

      Good morning, Grish,

      I'd like to move beyond, "Labels." The quality of any human being can only be gaged by his moral conduct in his/her association with the rest of his/her fellow human beings! Morality lies within the fundamental essence of the subjectively individual human spirit. Today's morality centers around hatred and ego, dictated by the label-makers. The hatred is inflicted upon the spirit as a rallying point. Organized groups of people must have a common enemy to bind and bond them as a collective organism. If you wear a "Label", then your course is pre-ordained, and you are predictable. People are uncomfortable, to the point of fear, of those who carry no label or defineable or obvious characteristics. Why must everyone be marked with a "Label?" How else would/could they identify those who they "Must" hate? The only thing I truly hate is igorance. That places most of my 21st century fellow beings on my "Short List!"

      "When will mankind evolve?" Label me......( ).........!

      • 4 votes
      Reply#12 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 11:02 AM EST
      DocPhil

      I love when I hear the religious talk about militant atheism. What most of them don't realize is that religions spread through their own militance, or prosyletizing. Without preaching the "truth" of what they believe, they do not win converts to their faith. Christianity has been militant from its roots. Whether it was the early believer preaching in the streets of Rome and Constantinople to the priests and masters forcing their religion on serfs in the middle ages, to the crusades, through the inquisition, through the pogroms, and then into the Christian missionary cycle, the militant nature of the faith cannot be questioned even by the most blind among us.

      Then to turn around and belittle those who don't believe in their fairy tales, who reject dogmas of eternal damnation or ethereal salvation and share with others the logic of their non-belief is hypocrisy of the highest order. Could some of us who consider ourselves to be atheists be considered to be militant by the religious majority. Of course. But it is only because they have been unable to provide a logical and effective counterpoint to our explanations of life and death in a universe controlled by scientific truths.

      • 7 votes
      Reply#13 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 11:45 AM EST
      frugalgovernment

      I guess the question I would ask is the following;

      Given the organized religion pedophilia scandal/cover-up, the attempt by organized religious institutions to perpetuate discrimination against specific citizens in American society and the interference by religious organizations in U.S. secular public policy are organized religions doing more harm than good to the American people?

      My answer is as follows:

      To date the American public is unsure whether organized religious institutions have in fact purged their ranks of pedophiles and it is still not clear whether America's children are safe in the hands of religious workers. Certain high ranking church officials accused of harboring pedophiles or been involved with pedophilia conspiracies have obtained safe harbor in religious sanctuaries and have yet to be brought to American justice.

      Religious institution in the United States have flagerently and repeatedly violated the separation of church and state tax exempt status by imposing church doctrine directly into U.S. elections and public policy. Religious institutions regularly promote an environment of discrimination and a 2 class society which is contrary to the Constitution of the United States of America.

      For all the good works religious institution perform in our society, I believe all those works are tainted acts. Based on outstanding issues yet to be resolved between religious institutions, outstanding criminal acts and dissenfranchised Americans.

      An institutrion can do all the charitable acts it wants, but, if charity begins with a crime and/or discrimatory under-pinnings the charitable acts are and will be tainted.

      My 2 cents.

      • 2 votes
      Reply#14 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 11:54 AM EST
      AmyEmilia

      I always thought it absurd that in the 21st century a vast majority of people still believe in divine revelations and in the gross fabrications of the Hebrew Bible.

      I am not knocking spirituality or faith but why swallow big tales?

      A book on creation that has no tale of how humans got fire, the gift of speech or the passage from hunters/gatherers to farmers. Three of the most important developments for mankind. Instead what we have is a perfect ready-made late Iron Age. Just about 600-500 BCE, the time the scribes of King Josiah penned down that undivinely revealed scripture.

      I have more to say but what is the point? Believing is such an irrational thing that reason cannot penetrate.

      • 4 votes
      Reply#15 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 12:19 PM EST
      Clara Listensprechen

      Religion has always demonized atheism to the point where they've effectively prohibited atheists from holding office, totally in violation of the No Religious Test clause in the Constitution. Religionists deserved to be demonized themselves on that issue alone, and there are many others.

      If religion can't stand it, they should stop dishing it out. Backlash in equal measure (at least) is called for. Giving religion a pass on demonization holds atheists to a higher standard than religion is held to. FAIL

      • 4 votes
      Reply#16 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 1:15 PM EST
      trm2008

      Religion has always demonized atheism to the point where they've effectively prohibited atheists from holding office,

      http://onfaith.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/undergod/2009/12/atheist_swears_affirms_oath_in_nc.html

      They've tried it recently. The religious right is just trying to brow beat any one that might oppose them.

      This deserves repeating:

      If all atheists are quiet and act deferentially towards religion, it gives religion more credibility and allows them to continue with their privileged status unquestioned.

      • 8 votes
      #16.1 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 1:25 PM EST
      Clara Listensprechen

      Big ole AMEN AND A HALF to that! When religion stops meddling in government and schools, I'll stop being militant. Not before.

      • 5 votes
      #16.2 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 1:29 PM EST
      trm2008

      I'm not militant, but I'm not silent either. Most people don't even know I'm an Atheist. I don't want to hear about their religion, so I don't bring up my lack of religion. I will defend myself if someone tells me I'm going to hell or offers to pray for my salvation.

      • 7 votes
      #16.3 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 1:31 PM EST
      Reply
      Vlad's dog

      Athiests have never tired to change me. Some folks with religion have tried to change me. I am happy and secure in my beliefs. I ain't changing for any human.

      I think all the advertising on both sides is a waste of time. I hate billboards, they are just plain ugly no matter what the message is.

      • 6 votes
      Reply#17 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 1:35 PM EST
      Zero-

      you should show respect for the history not the religion itself

      • 1 vote
      #17.1 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 1:46 PM EST
      Hecate's Daughter

      you should show respect for the history not the religion itself

      The history of billboard advertising?
      HD

      • 7 votes
      #17.2 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 2:05 PM EST
      Clara Listensprechen

      Sorry, captlace, but there's no legitimate history to be found in any religion. They're the worst revisionists on the planet.

      • 3 votes
      #17.3 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 6:56 PM EST
      Reply
      Future History

      I don't mind being called a militant atheist ... that just means I am successful at defending it. The fact is, the vast majority of confrontation between atheists and theists comes directly from issues involving the separation of religion and government. Why would we care about any agenda outside of that sphere? When's the last time an atheist knocked on your door to spread the word of atheism? It is the constant challenges to the brilliant and neccessary constitutional language put forth by our forefathers that forces us to be publicly heard, even though that language we are defending is there to protect not only atheists, but theists of all kinds as well. It is a rare occasion when it is the atheists that are instigating this challenge. Nearly every argument of this nature results from religious folks taking it upon themselves to flaut the law and preach to a school, or insist on a prayer in a captive audience, or refuse to remove dogma from a public space, et. etc.. Nor do atheists go out of their way to create huge drama to spread their message, like Rev. Phelps's klan.

      We simply protect the language of the constitution, so if you want to call that militant, then I'm fine with that.

      • 5 votes
      Reply#18 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 1:56 PM EST
      Ronald Shimokaji-5189403

      Can Any of you explain to me how we on the left can be classified as Communist and Fascists in the same breath by those of you on the right? As was proven during WW II, the Nazis allied themselves with fascist elements to legitimize their campaign of genocide against Jews, Gypsys, and the mentally ill.

      • 1 vote
      Reply#19 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 2:03 PM EST
      whoop-adze

      oh, just the right wing NUTS spewing, I guess...

      • 2 votes
      #19.1 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 2:24 PM EST
      Reply
      Anatoly-Rex

      I think you've got a bit of a bias at work here Grisham, though I guess its understandable considering how Atheists are treated by the American Christian community. Its one thing if two individuals of a differing opinion meet in a space dedicated to discussion and disagree with one another. Its another thing if one individual actively seeks out people with different opinions and attempts to undermine their belief system or upset them.

      Atheists have to endure that crap from Christians all the time. Its wrong. But the fact that their privileged status allows them to get away with doing something wrong doesn't erase the existence of atheists who do that too. Their are plenty of atheists out there who not only feel the need to rub their belief system in the face of others, not only derive a sense of pleasure from upsetting those who disagree with them but also feel compelled to eliminate religious sentiments in others. That is a very serious issue the atheist community needs to address honestly. The fact that there is a portion of the Atheist population that acts out the same behaviors of Christians despite the absence of a doctrine demanding it should pose serious questions about the present state of Atheism.

      • 5 votes
      #20 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 3:05 PM EST
      Zero-

      i speak as one whose not a a christian or an atheist i agree with grisham

      • 2 votes
      #20.1 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 3:23 PM EST
      TiG.

      AR

      Well said. There is no changing one's belief system; that is an evolutionary process. What we believe is a function of life experiences (and cognitive make-up). The best one can do is offer a respectful discussion providing the 'other side' food for thought. Unfortunately - especially in discussions of religion - preconceived notions (bias) tend to position ridicule and disdain as the governing dynamic.

      Both 'sides' are at fault.

      • 4 votes
      #20.2 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 3:29 PM EST
      Zero-

      now there i fully agree

        #20.3 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 3:45 PM EST
        Anatoly-Rex

        "The best one can do is offer a respectful discussion"

        Unless you're talking to a pissant who will delete your posts just because you intellectually raped him. :)

        • 4 votes
        #20.4 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 4:02 PM EST
        TiG.

        Well ... yeah ... there is that. :-)

        • 2 votes
        #20.5 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 4:16 PM EST
        Clara Listensprechen

        There is no changing one's belief system; that is an evolutionary process. What we believe is a function of life experiences (and cognitive make-up). The best one can do is offer a respectful discussion providing the 'other side' food for thought. Unfortunately - especially in discussions of religion - preconceived notions (bias) tend to position ridicule and disdain as the governing dynamic.

        Considering the tinderbox that the Middle East is in blowing up the planet on any given day, thanks to religion, your life may depend on your doing a whole lot better than that, a whole lot faster. And not only your life depends on it.

        • 2 votes
        #20.6 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 6:58 PM EST
        TiG.

        Clara

        How do we change the long-established cultural and religious hatred at play? It would be great if we could employ diplomatic techniques to change the beliefs but that is not an option.

        • 1 vote
        #20.7 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 7:31 PM EST
        Anatoly-Rex

        "Middle East is in blowing up the planet on any given day, thanks to religion"

        Nope. That is the myth perpetuated by the powers that be in order to incite hatred among the masses. The Middle East is a hotbed of unrest because of Capitalist Imperialism. The West has been trying to push its economic agenda and social agenda on the Middle East for a long time and as a response nativist elements, looking to preserve their cultural and social autonomy, have turned to religion as a means of resisting foreign aggression. The Middle East was essentially devoid of the oppressive theocratic institutions we associate it with today right up until the eighteenth century (during the formative years of Capitalism) and it wasn't until the twentieth when Capitalist powers began forcibly partitioning, deposing, and exploiting the region that Islamic Fundamentalism began a significant force in Middle Eastern politics. Had the military, political, and economic pressures of Capitalism as enforced by the West not been around, the conditions which sparked popular interest in "radical" Islam wouldn't have existed and in turn the region would probably have been infinitely more stable. In short, religion is a tool for unrest, not its source.

        • 2 votes
        #20.8 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 7:38 PM EST
        Kevin S.-2696867

        Their are plenty of atheists out there who not only feel the need to rub their belief system in the face of others, not only derive a sense of pleasure from upsetting those who disagree with them but also feel compelled to eliminate religious sentiments in others.

        And Christians feel compelled to plant their religious sentiments in others. What's the problem? You argue your ideas and the better ideas win. That's how debate in a free society is supposed to work. As long as nobody is trying to win at the point of a gun, it's no problem.

        The fact that there is a portion of the Atheist population that acts out the same behaviors of Christians despite the absence of a doctrine demanding it should pose serious questions about the present state of Atheism.

        If only people who have a specific doctrine of expansion are allowed to advocate for their beliefs, then expansionist belief systems win by default. Furthermore, while it's not a religious doctrine, some atheists fervently believe that theism is harmful and that the world would be a better place if there was less religion in it.

        • 2 votes
        #20.9 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 9:00 PM EST
        Anatoly-Rex

        "And Christians feel compelled to plant their religious sentiments in others. What's the problem?"

        Its wrong.

        "You argue your ideas and the better ideas win. That's how debate in a free society is supposed to work."

        First and foremost, I alluded to the problem with that thinking in:

        Its one thing if two individuals of a differing opinion meet in a space dedicated to discussion and disagree with one another. Its another thing if one individual actively seeks out people with different opinions and attempts to undermine their belief system or upset them.

        But two additional points:

        1) In a free society one can choose whether or not they participate in a debate.

        2) Better ideas is subjective and nothing about the popularity of an idea necessarily says whether it will be successful or better.

        "If only people who have a specific doctrine of expansion are allowed to advocate for their beliefs, then expansionist belief systems win by default."

        That presumes that people who pursue expansionist policies are successful in convincing everyone 100 percent of the time. The reality of the matter is that every belief system has its shortcomings which invariably produce counter-viewpoints regardless of how aggressively those counter-viewpoints are pushed.

        "Furthermore, while it's not a religious doctrine, some atheists fervently believe that theism is harmful and that the world would be a better place if there was less religion in it."

        Thats not new information to me.

          #20.10 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 9:40 PM EST
          Clara Listensprechen

          Anatoly-Rex, you're conveniently overlooking the fact that imperialism of all stripes is religious. As in, Divine Right to Rule. Calling it "imperialism" does NOT extract the matter from religion, but instead plunges it deeper into religion.

          • 1 vote
          #20.11 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 11:27 PM EST
          Anatoly-Rex

          "Anatoly-Rex, you're conveniently overlooking the fact that imperialism of all stripes is religious."

          Except of course that it is not.

          "As in, Divine Right to Rule"

          I'd love to see you find that in the Soviet constitution.

          "Calling it "imperialism" does NOT extract the matter from religion, but instead plunges it deeper into religion."

          Ignoring the totality of my point about the Middle East in favor of some vague declaration about imperialism being synonymous with religion does not invalidate my argument.

          • 2 votes
          #20.12 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:49 AM EST
          Future History

          In short, religion is a tool for unrest, not its source.

          What defines religion? Dogma - that's what. Read the Koran and tell us that there is nothing in that dogma that serves as a tool for unrest. The same can be said for the OT and the NT. These scriptures are obviously not completely framed by bad intentions, but there is no mistaking that a significant portion has been deliberately designed to turn the adherents into warriers for a particular religion, and those religions started in specific geographic locations. Therefore, it is not illogical to draw the conclusion that these works were intended to inspire nations to not only defend themselves, but to be aggresive to neighboring nations. The bible itself condones slavery for captives of those neighboring nations, and in absence of the industrial revolution, slavery was how societies quickened the pace of development - which is the primary driver of nation building.

            #20.13 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:50 AM EST
            Anatoly-Rex

            "What defines religion? Dogma - that's what."

            Dogma is an aspect of some religions, not all of them. Countless religions promote a subjectivity of existence while others purposefully build their ethical structures on the rejection of dogma. Furthermore, dogma is not exclusive to religion. Something can be held as an unquestionable truth by a group without having religious connotations.

            "These scriptures are obviously not completely framed by bad intentions, but there is no mistaking that a significant portion has been deliberately designed to turn the adherents into warriers for a particular religion, and those religions started in specific geographic locations"

            Anything can be revised into something that is oppressive regardless of its original intent. From the Leninist's pervesion of Marxism into a tool of class inequality to the usage of Liberal Democracy to perpetuate slavery for centuries, humans have an innate capacity to use an belief system for both positive and negative things.

            "Therefore, it is not illogical to draw the conclusion that these works were intended to inspire nations to not only defend themselves, but to be aggresive to neighboring nations."

            So? In the presence of a scarcity of resources every society feels a need to create an ideology which will legitimize expansion in the eyes of the People. Whether it is spreading Christianity or spreading Democracy, you've only emphasized the how the cause is rooted in something that is external to a particular religion or belief system.

            PS:

            TIG, I'd like you to debate me on this if you have the time:

            http://bart-gruzalskibartgruzalski.newsvine.com/_news/2012/02/10/10370187-the-black-bloc-that-causes-violence-within-ows-demonstrations-is-whether-intentionally-or-not-doing-what-the-1-welcomes-and-is-very-effectively-doing-the-work-of-agent-provocateurs?threadId=3342612&commentId=62382175#c62382175

              #20.14 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:03 PM EST
              Future History

              Anything can be revised into something that is oppressive regardless of its original intent.

              My point is that the original intent WAS oppresive. Concepts like gender inequality, genocide and slavery are certainly part of the original intent of the Koran, the OT and the NT. I'm not trying to address all religions of the world in this matter, just the Abramhamic ones.

              So? In the presence of a scarcity of resources every society feels a need to create an ideology which will legitimize expansion in the eyes of the People.

              You don't find a disingenuous indoctrination of nations of illiterates that is designed specifically to act on their fears of the afterlife to be a horribly wrong approach to nation building? Maybe back then, this was considered more legitimate, because there was no industry to assist in building nations - but let's face it, it is an abhorent and completely unethical concept by today's standards. Unfortunately, the same religions are so firmly entrenched that most people accept them without even thinking about them and their roots.

              TIG, I'd like you to debate me on this if you have the time:

              Heading home from work. I'll try to peruse it later.

                #20.15 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:55 PM EST
                Future History

                oops - just noticed you were addressing TIG at the end there.

                  #20.16 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:04 PM EST
                  Anatoly-Rex

                  "My point is that the original intent WAS oppresive."

                  I was making a general point not specific to any religion.

                  "Concepts like gender inequality, genocide and slavery are certainly part of the original intent of the Koran, the OT and the NT."

                  As they were in the United States. Our country outgrew those institutions while retaining the same organization and founding documents. You don't seem to be grasping my point - religion can be altered to serve a particular purpose just like anything else. Regardless of what the original intent of a religion's framers were, subsequent will revise it according to the circumstances that affect them. Its a tool. A hammer can be used constructively or destructively, but we don't dismiss the hammer as inherently bad for humanity simply because we can find instances wherein its wielder was of a poor character.

                  "I'm not trying to address all religions of the world in this matter, just the Abramhamic ones."

                  You said "What defines religion" not "what defines Abrahamic religions". If thats the road you intended to take I'll walk with you down it but as a point I want to make it clear that I find the Atheist's fixation on Abrahamic religions and conflation of their problems with the failures of all religions to be intellectually dishonest.

                  "You don't find a disingenuous indoctrination of nations of illiterates that is designed specifically to act on their fears of the afterlife to be a horribly wrong approach to nation building?"

                  I find "nation building" to be horribly wrong. I don't find the indoctrination and subsequent exploitation of the masses acceptable in any way while you seem to be only concerned if the way used for those purposes just happens to be religion.

                  I also don't like your qualifier "disingenuous". Attributing to the ruling class some sort of maniacal genius and foresight is very problematic. There are plenty of times in the history of many empires where it would have been in the best interest of the powerful to simply cast off their beliefs. Instead they have followed those beliefs all the way into destruction because they too, on some level, have believed them. Regardless of whether or not a religion has an empirical basis it is real in the minds of its practitioners.

                  "Maybe back then, this was considered more legitimate, because there was no industry to assist in building nations - but let's face it, it is an abhorent and completely unethical concept by today's standards."

                  And by "today's standards" you're referring to the standards of Western, secular, liberal minded society. The world doesn't share those standards nor does it sit at the top of the Capitalist pyramid, (built in part by religion) enjoying the obscene wealth that allows the Western to dismiss religion as unnecessary.

                  For centuries the West has pushed its ideology on the rest of the world, justified in part by its religion. It contended that it was peak of human civilization and in the process committed *the* most horrific acts of barbarism in recorded history. The irony of dismissal of religion is that it, in a strange way, continues the very kind of thinking that Western Christians used.

                  I don't for a moment endorse theocratic totalitarianism, religious authoritarianism, misogyny, or the enslavement of human beings. But I also do not endorse the imposition of any belief system on a people, for in my belief system every group should have the right to self-determination no matter how bloody the consequence.

                  "oops - just noticed you were addressing TIG at the end there."

                  Thats OK, you're welcome to join if you like. :)

                    #20.17 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:21 PM EST
                    Clara Listensprechen

                    Nice attempt at derailing the topic of imperialism, which has always been about religion, by bringing up the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, very much as much a United States as the United States is. The United States, under Christian imperialism, was part and parcel of both U.S. imperialism as well as the Cold War especially insofar as they made it a crusade against the godless. It's the imperial crusade that made the USSR react the way it did, silly.

                      #20.18 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:30 PM EST
                      Anatoly-Rex

                      ". The United States, under Christian imperialism, was part and parcel of both U.S. imperialism as well as the Cold War especially insofar as they made it a crusade against the godless. It's the imperial crusade that made the USSR react the way it did, silly."

                      The Soviet Union fought against Capitalist Imperialism and according to Marxist-Leninism rejected religion much in the same way I have here - as a tool. I brought up the Soviet Union because it conducted its campaigns of imperialism for economic and political reasons, pointing out that this put it in opposition to the United States doesn't change the fact that within the Soviet worldview their resistance was about economics and politics, not religion.

                      I've derailed nothing and your failure to provide proof that imperialism of all stripes (your words) is rooted in a religious justification speaks to the weakness of your position.

                        #20.19 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:42 PM EST
                        Clara Listensprechen

                        Hardly. The USSR's foreign adventures were often between consenting adult nations who were similarly horrified by the U.S.'s foreign adventures of religious imperialism, sorry. Americans feel so self-important that they believe they've got an obvious Manifest Destiny the world should bow to. And that's one of the many reasons why the book "The Ugly American" was written. Religion has been what's made Americans ugly to others, beginning with but not limited to the Native American.

                          #20.20 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:01 PM EST
                          Anatoly-Rex

                          "The USSR's foreign adventures were often between consenting adult nations who were similarly horrified by the U.S.'s foreign adventures of religious imperialism, sorry."

                          First off, "consenting adult nations"? That is hilarious.

                          Second, you've just repeated your original point. I made argument - "The Soviet Union fought against Capitalist Imperialism" which I substantiated by pointing to Marxist Leninism. If you're rejecting my argument you need to point to something to substantiate your counterargument about "religious" imperialism. Not just repeat yourself over and over again.

                          ". Americans feel so self-important that they believe they've got an obvious Manifest Destiny the world should bow to."

                          Manifest Destiny was a notion popularized by a single party, one that legitimized only the conquest of North America. You've not only ignored the limited support for the concept but also grossly warped its meaning.

                          "Religion has been what's made Americans ugly to others, beginning with but not limited to the Native American."

                          Psst: Native Americans practiced religion too.

                            #20.21 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:42 PM EST
                            Clara Listensprechen

                            Nothing you've said excuses religious imperialism, sorry. It still exists, and religion has always been a tool of empire. it is a fabrication of empire. That there are non-religious empires goes to humanity's megalomania without religious assistance. Religion gives human megalomania unquestioned assistance.

                              #20.22 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:10 PM EST
                              Anatoly-Rex

                              "Nothing you've said excuses religious imperialism, sorry."

                              I've not tried to excuse religious imperialism. I've reject your attempt to take a form of imperialism and conflate it as the only manifestation imperialism.

                              "It still exists, and religion has always been a tool of empire. "

                              That was my original point.

                              "That there are non-religious empires"

                              So you've acknowledge the existence of empire without religious justification, conceding the accuracy of my point. Are there any more of your own arguments you'd like to causally backtrack on?

                                #20.23 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:18 PM EST
                                TiG.

                                Anatoly

                                TIG, I'd like you to debate me on this if you have the time:

                                Sure, I will devote some time to it, but the topic (as I interpret it) is not one where I am inclined to deal with a long series of monster posts. :-)

                                • 1 vote
                                #20.24 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:58 PM EST
                                Clara Listensprechen

                                Good call, TIG. Me neither. Also, debating with people who put words in my mouth doesn't appeal to me either. Pass, Anatoly. I didn't say what you claim I said, but I'm leaving it at that.

                                • 1 vote
                                #20.25 - Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:50 PM EST
                                Kevin S.-2696867

                                From Anatoly Rex:

                                That presumes that people who pursue expansionist policies are successful in convincing everyone 100 percent of the time. The reality of the matter is that every belief system has its shortcomings which invariably produce counter-viewpoints regardless of how aggressively those counter-viewpoints are pushed.

                                In the short term, maybe. The problem is that aggressively expansionist belief systems will convince some people just because they're trying to, while belief systems with "polite" adherents don't convince anybody because they're not trying. Over the long term, the idea with aggressive believers will keep winning more adherents and outlast the various "counterpoints" that arise and fade over the years.

                                American political debate has shifted to the right over the years because the right wing has been aggressive while waging a concerted effort to convince everyone that liberals are "impolite" if they express their ideas forthrightly or argue against conservatism. Reality demonstrates that belief systems that have no "aggressive" followers don't fare well.

                                • 1 vote
                                #20.26 - Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:23 PM EST
                                Clara Listensprechen

                                Yeah. What Kevin said!

                                • 2 votes
                                #20.27 - Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:28 PM EST
                                Anatoly-Rex

                                Clara

                                "Good call, TIG. Me neither."

                                You weren't invited.

                                "Also, debating with people who put words in my mouth doesn't appeal to me either."

                                TIG did make a post and as the smiley face on the end of his post shows, he was making a joke about some of our previous conversations.

                                Kevin

                                "In the short term, maybe"

                                Maybe? Maybe they produce counterpoints? I'd challenge you to find any political, philosophical, or religious belief system that doesn't have a long history of detractors and resistors.

                                "The problem is that aggressively expansionist belief systems will convince some people just because they're trying to, while belief systems with "polite" adherents don't convince anybody because they're not trying."

                                I have a question: exactly how many religious people were murdered en mass in order for secularism and science to rise and dominate the world as they do today? Can you point me to the scientific, secular equivalent of the Inquisition or the Mutaween?

                                "Some" people can be converted through violence or indoctrination, that is certainly true. But the argument that a belief system either commits acts of violence or fades into oblivion is quite inaccurate. Ideologies persist or expire based on the consequences of their adoption. A belief system can flourish precisely because it doesn't ask the populous to die in wars, endure oppression, or provoke their neighbors unlike more aggressive belief systems.

                                "American political debate has shifted to the right over the years because the right wing has been aggressive while waging a concerted effort to convince everyone that liberals are "impolite" if they express their ideas forthrightly or argue against conservatism."

                                No, the American political debate has shifted to the Right because Liberals are foolish. They took the great support for Leftism that was built by non-Liberal leftists and allowed it to decay precisely because they didn't understand how it was built in the first place. They allied themselves with the enemy (the wealthy, a corrupt government), compromised to gain power at the cost of the worker's interest and so people came to recognize them as disappointments.

                                The Right is allowed to behave dishonestly, mislead, and do things which hurt the working class precisely because those things are in the interest of the wealthy. It is the wealthy who control the media, who decide which politicians we can vote for and which ones are invisible and it is therefore the wealthy who decide what Americans are debating. Liberals naively believe that their agenda, one that places blame on the wealthy, will be given an equal status by the wealthy. It won't. That is why liberals fail, not because they are "too polite". The masses see Liberals as failures, hypocrites, and do-nothings and the wealthy see Liberals as useful scapegoats and easily manipulated enemies.

                                  #20.28 - Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:29 PM EST
                                  Clara Listensprechen

                                  On a public board, no one needs an invitation, silly.

                                  And the debate had shifted to the right because the right had more money. With money, you can buy people, silly.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #20.29 - Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:00 AM EST
                                  Anatoly-Rex

                                  "On a public board, no one needs an invitation, silly."

                                  I didn't say it did. Your statement implied that I asked people to join in on a discussion, you thought TIG did not want to participate in the discussion and were joining him in not participating neither.

                                  "And the debate had shifted to the right because the right had more money. With money, you can buy people, silly."

                                  That isn't in conflict with my argument its in contradiction to Kevin's, who you congratulated a moment ago.

                                    #20.30 - Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:20 AM EST
                                    Clara Listensprechen

                                    Well, once again you put words in my mouth. FAIL. And pass.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #20.31 - Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:48 PM EST
                                    Kevin S.-2696867

                                    Maybe? Maybe they produce counterpoints? I'd challenge you to find any political, philosophical, or religious belief system that doesn't have a long history of detractors and resistors.

                                    In the short term, counterpoints will rise. My point was that these counterpoints can only gain traction in the short term if nobody aggressively argues for them. Without fierce advocacy, these counterpoints will whither and die, especially when competing with an entrenched ideology whose adherents will advocate fiercely for it.

                                    I have a question: exactly how many religious people were murdered en mass in order for secularism and science to rise and dominate the world as they do today? Can you point me to the scientific, secular equivalent of the Inquisition or the Mutaween?

                                    "Some" people can be converted through violence or indoctrination, that is certainly true. But the argument that a belief system either commits acts of violence or fades into oblivion is quite inaccurate. Ideologies persist or expire based on the consequences of their adoption. A belief system can flourish precisely because it doesn't ask the populous to die in wars, endure oppression, or provoke their neighbors unlike more aggressive belief systems.

                                    Who said anything about violence? This article was about how atheists are regarded as militant merely for arguing forcefully and bluntly in favor of atheism. All my arguments were about arguing aggressively, while you've condemned atheists for wanting to "eliminate religious sentiments from others" through argument.

                                    The Right is allowed to behave dishonestly, mislead, and do things which hurt the working class precisely because those things are in the interest of the wealthy. It is the wealthy who control the media, who decide which politicians we can vote for and which ones are invisible and it is therefore the wealthy who decide what Americans are debating.

                                    And yet, forceful advocacy can make headway even against this headwind. Witness how the Occupy movement has turned "the 1% vs. the 99%" Into a common frame of reference despite media attitudes that range from mildly negative (mainstream media) to scurrilously demeaning (conservative and business media). This change in the discourse didn't happen because people were quiet or polite.

                                      #20.32 - Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:58 PM EST
                                      Reply
                                      Glenn P

                                      Grisham, some religions are much more tolerant than others. Sounds like you were burned a time or two. Not all religions or religious beliefs "live in a cocoon." If one interjects man's or woman's interpretation, that is when we get into trouble.

                                      Humanism is inherently corrupt, evil, jealous, and of an ulterior motive... Pragmatism can be abundantly found in atheism, muhammadanism, communism, conservatism, progressivism, liberalism, and all the other"isms" out there....

                                        Reply#21 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 8:05 PM EST
                                        Clara Listensprechen

                                        Humanity is inherently corrupt and religion is no guarantee against corruption. In fact, there doesn't exist a better cover for corruption than religion.

                                        • 3 votes
                                        #21.1 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 11:28 PM EST
                                        Reply
                                        Kavika

                                        I'm certainly happy that I'm a Pagan, or so the Christians say.

                                        It doesn't matter to me if your a believer or not. Humans will always find a justification for what they believe in. My only thought on this is please don't try to convert me to whatever religion you follow or don't follow.

                                        Grisham, as always a very interesting article.

                                        • 3 votes
                                        Reply#22 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:02 AM EST
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